Yet another cheats in D3 multiplayer thread

Meet the people you love to kill (and be killed by) in Descent!

Moderator: Do_Checkor

Post Reply
User avatar
sigma
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2840
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:24 am
Location: Moscow

Yet another cheats in D3 multiplayer thread

Post by sigma » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:05 pm

Now I have no one can dissuade the fact that in multiplayer D3 constantly and regularly used cheats.
Bye!
User avatar
Do_Checkor
DBB DemiGod
DBB DemiGod
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:01 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Is It Over?

Post by Do_Checkor » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:44 pm

sigma wrote:Now I have no one can dissuade the fact that in multiplayer D3 constantly and regularly used cheats.
Bye!

I have only seen this post today.

I am a disappointed to see someone who seemed to play regular for a couple of months thinking that cheats would be used at all.

Do you have ANY valid reason to think so? Do you have any reasonable proof of cheats in D3 online?

And even if so: What about Anticheat (A/C) protected servers like Descentforum.NET?

What ever: I have seen you fumbling with / manipulating missions that were not yours without permission so I do not really understand your point / ethics.

However: If you want to let this community know that you are going to leave D3 MP for no valid reason () - please do that in your own topic.

The message of the topic starter was far away from your standpoint at least.

Thanks.
User avatar
sigma
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2840
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:24 am
Location: Moscow

Re: Is It Over?

Post by sigma » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:35 am

all my experience of playing in other network shooters tells me that in D3 are actively used cheats. Of course I can not prove to you what specific kinds of cheats are used in D3. Kinds of cheats a lot. It's pretty hard. Server Manager server admin D3 does not allow to gather evidence of cheating. It does not have these features. I will not give here the nicknames of players who in my opinion, one way or another use cheats. Since I can not prove it. However, in multiplayer D3 there is a situation that is almost impossible to play normally. Except with the BOZ.
User avatar
Do_Checkor
DBB DemiGod
DBB DemiGod
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:01 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Is It Over?

Post by Do_Checkor » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:50 am

sigma wrote:all my experience of playing in other network shooters tells me that in D3 are actively used cheats. Of course I can not prove to you what specific kinds of cheats are used in D3. Kinds of cheats a lot. It's pretty hard. Server Manager server admin D3 does not allow to gather evidence of cheating. It does not have these features. I will not give here the nicknames of players who in my opinion, one way or another use cheats. Since I can not prove it. However, in multiplayer D3 there is a situation that is almost impossible to play normally. Except with the BOZ.
As soon as you've got a video showing evidence, or any evidence at all that you're right: let me know - or open your own forum topic. This topic is not the right place for untenable assertion. I have not seen evidence for any cheats being used in D3 online multiplayer for 5 years. At least not on AntiCheat protected servers. And this is from "all my experience of daily beeing online with the D3 online community for 13 years". Thanks.
User avatar
sigma
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2840
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:24 am
Location: Moscow

Re: Is It Over?

Post by sigma » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:50 am

I'm not even going to argue with you. If you are over 5 years old have not seen any cheaters in D3. I'm only two years into a network D3, and yet, I have repeatedly seen the cheaters. And I see them now. Of course I believe you. But I do believe my eyes so much more. Any time please!
User avatar
Krom
DBB Database Master
DBB Database Master
Posts: 15181
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 1998 3:01 am
Location: Camping the energy center. BTW, did you know you can have up to 100 characters in this location box?
Contact:

Re: Is It Over?

Post by Krom » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:47 am

Perhaps it is time for a topic split?

sigma, you have to cut the D3 network code some slack, it is a little over 14 years old so it is not as polished as the network code in modern games. Also your geographical location (Russia) does not help, the increased latency and packet loss from the distance only makes things play worse on your end. Most other players are going to be closer to the servers and thus have an apparent advantage over you. With the D3 network code, on the internet the latency is often high enough that even players near the server can do seemingly impossible things like flying straight through your ship or weapons without taking any damage. And then there is packet loss, which can cause your weapons to be ineffective, cause you to take damage from things that you dodged and also cause enemy ships to warp around the map. Sometimes packets buffer up and then burst somewhere along the connection which can cause other players to appear to be shooting or moving impossibly fast. And D3 also doesn't handle out of order packets the best either, which can cause all manner of absurd things to happen in a game. This does not mean people are cheating, they are just artifacts of internet play that everyone has to deal with on occasion. More experienced players have learned to work around it or compensate, but everyone still has to deal with it sometimes.
User avatar
Foil
DBB Material Defender
DBB Material Defender
Posts: 4900
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:31 pm
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Is It Over?

Post by Foil » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:55 pm

Yes, definitely time for a topic split.

---

sigma, it can take a very long time understand what players are doing when it appears that they are cheating, especially when you have extra network latency (and other issues as Krom described).

As the veterans here know, there are many known bugs in D3 which can appear like someone is cheating.

Examples:
"unseen napalm-missile fire" (caused by fire existing on the server, not seen on your client because of network issues)
"mega bounce" (player thrown by client-side mega-missile which did not hit on the server because of tracking differences)

There are many of these, and none of them are caused by cheats.
User avatar
sigma
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2840
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:24 am
Location: Moscow

Re: Is It Over?

Post by sigma » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:26 pm

Krom wrote:Perhaps it is time for a topic split?

sigma, you have to cut the D3 network code some slack, it is a little over 14 years old so it is not as polished as the network code in modern games. Also your geographical location (Russia) does not help, the increased latency and packet loss from the distance only makes things play worse on your end. Most other players are going to be closer to the servers and thus have an apparent advantage over you. With the D3 network code, on the internet the latency is often high enough that even players near the server can do seemingly impossible things like flying straight through your ship or weapons without taking any damage. And then there is packet loss, which can cause your weapons to be ineffective, cause you to take damage from things that you dodged and also cause enemy ships to warp around the map. Sometimes packets buffer up and then burst somewhere along the connection which can cause other players to appear to be shooting or moving impossibly fast. And D3 also doesn't handle out of order packets the best either, which can cause all manner of absurd things to happen in a game. This does not mean people are cheating, they are just artifacts of internet play that everyone has to deal with on occasion. More experienced players have learned to work around it or compensate, but everyone still has to deal with it sometimes.
Indeed, it looks like a plausible explanation for the strange phenomena that are very similar to the action of a few real cheats that I know of. 90% of my suspicions you were able to dispel. Many thanks for a detailed and competent explanation.
Foil wrote:Yes, definitely time for a topic split.

---

sigma, it can take a very long time understand what players are doing when it appears that they are cheating, especially when you have extra network latency (and other issues as Krom described).

As the veterans here know, there are many known bugs in D3 which can appear like someone is cheating.

Examples:
"unseen napalm-missile fire" (caused by fire existing on the server, not seen on your client because of network issues)
"mega bounce" (player thrown by client-side mega-missile which did not hit on the server because of tracking differences)

There are many of these, and none of them are caused by cheats.
Thank Foil. All this I already know. There are also considerably more interesting things sometimes that are not described Krom. Things that still can not be attributed to the problems described Krom.
User avatar
Foil
DBB Material Defender
DBB Material Defender
Posts: 4900
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:31 pm
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Is It Over?

Post by Foil » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:37 pm

sigma wrote:...a few real cheats that I know of.
Can you describe these?
User avatar
sigma
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2840
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:24 am
Location: Moscow

Re: Is It Over?

Post by sigma » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:49 pm

Foil wrote:
sigma wrote:...a few real cheats that I know of.
Can you describe these?
It's impossible to describe. You simply can not understand. In order to be able to discern the effect of such cheats, you need a lot of experience in online gaming. I can not give you these things for many serious reasons. I'm sorry.
User avatar
Foil
DBB Material Defender
DBB Material Defender
Posts: 4900
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:31 pm
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Is It Over?

Post by Foil » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:57 pm

sigma wrote:It's impossible to describe.
Try.
sigma wrote:You simply can not understand. In order to be able to discern the effect of such cheats, you need a lot of experience in online gaming.
I have been playing Descent since 1994, and multiplayer D3 for over a decade. I have been hosting dedicated D3 servers for most of that time. I have worked with the D3 SDK and the AC system, and have dealt with various kinds of cheats in the past.

-----------

If you cannot describe the cheat, then do not complain about it.
If you can describe the cheat, then do so (via PM if you must).
User avatar
Foil
DBB Material Defender
DBB Material Defender
Posts: 4900
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:31 pm
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Is It Over?

Post by Foil » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:01 pm

Here is an idea, which has helped many in the past:

Catch the cheat on video. There are many video-capture programs which work well with D3. When you have caught the cheat video, post it on YouTube, and post it here.
User avatar
sigma
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2840
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:24 am
Location: Moscow

Re: Is It Over?

Post by sigma » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:20 pm

I certainly meant cheats to other online shooters. Some of their effects are described in detail Krom.
These are very serious things that you can not install without instruction, without endangering your computer.
As for the Descent, you'll find children's trainers for it online for free.

I do not recall even a single instance when posting videos on YouTube could stop even one cheater :D
User avatar
Foil
DBB Material Defender
DBB Material Defender
Posts: 4900
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:31 pm
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Is It Over?

Post by Foil » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:26 pm

Show me, don't just tell me.

Point me to the website with the cheat.
- or -
Video the cheat
- or -
Describe the cheat
- or -
Demonstrate the cheat


Simply saying, "there are cheaters" does nothing.
User avatar
sigma
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2840
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:24 am
Location: Moscow

Re: Is It Over?

Post by sigma » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:47 pm

I've realized that you are living on another planet :)

User avatar
Foil
DBB Material Defender
DBB Material Defender
Posts: 4900
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:31 pm
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Is It Over?

Post by Foil » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:53 pm

We were talking about D3. You claimed:
sigma wrote: I'm only two years into a network D3, and yet, I have repeatedly seen the cheaters. And I see them now.
1. Video it.
2. Describe it.
3. Demonstrate it.

Choose one or more.
User avatar
sigma
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2840
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:24 am
Location: Moscow

Re: Is It Over?

Post by sigma » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:27 pm

I never lay out the video here, where you will be able to see clearly and unequivocally convinced that D3 break very easily. I promised them not to give someone a record. All I can say is that some of them are Americans. And that is a lot of fun to watch. You may need to contact the admins of those servers D3, which had banned them. Maybe they will be able to provide you with the video. As for my suspicion on the use of smart cheat, you will not be able to see it on video. Even if I put on You Tube. You just do not understand what's going on.
User avatar
Foil
DBB Material Defender
DBB Material Defender
Posts: 4900
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:31 pm
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Is It Over?

Post by Foil » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:48 pm

sigma wrote:You may need to contact the admins of those servers D3, which had banned them.
Ah. So these cheaters have been caught and banned already. If it was within the last decade, then I am probably one of the admins who caught and banned them.
sigma wrote:As for my suspicion on the use of smart cheat, you will not be able to see it on video.
If it cannot be seen, how do you know it is cheating?
sigma wrote:You just do not understand what's going on.
Try me.

Describe it, or stop complaining.
User avatar
Do_Checkor
DBB DemiGod
DBB DemiGod
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:01 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by Do_Checkor » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:36 pm

Foil wrote:Yes, definitely time for a topic split.
agreed. done.
User avatar
sigma
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2840
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:24 am
Location: Moscow

Re: Is It Over?

Post by sigma » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:12 am

Foil wrote:
sigma wrote:As for my suspicion on the use of smart cheat, you will not be able to see it on video.
If it cannot be seen, how do you know it is cheating?
Because I've tested most of the known cheats. Because I played a lot with cheaters, using various kinds of cheats to understand their operating principle. I have to be able to discern a cheater, as the administrator of game servers. Even if the server manager can not discern them.
Foil wrote:
sigma wrote:You just do not understand what's going on.
Try me.

Describe it, or stop complaining.
As I said, in order to learn to recognize the cheaters, you need to become a skilled cheater. To be able to play use cheats is not as easy as it may seem to the beginner. Therefore, a pro without cheating gets enjoyment from the game, punishing an inexperienced cheater.
User avatar
Foil
DBB Material Defender
DBB Material Defender
Posts: 4900
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:31 pm
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Yet another cheats in D3 multiplayer thread

Post by Foil » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:31 pm

sigma,

If you have no evidence, do not make accusations.

If you are not experienced (you said you have only played D3 online for a couple of years), do not tell veteran server admins and players and anti-cheat developers (who have 15+ years of experience), that they "do not understand".

-------

Come back when you have something you can either describe or demonstrate or video. We'll wait.
User avatar
sigma
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2840
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:24 am
Location: Moscow

Re: Yet another cheats in D3 multiplayer thread

Post by sigma » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:48 pm

Foil wrote:sigma,

If you have no evidence, do not make accusations.

If you are not experienced (you said you have only played D3 online for a couple of years), do not tell veteran server admins and players and anti-cheat developers (who have 15+ years of experience), that they "do not understand".

-------

Come back when you have something you can either describe or demonstrate or video. We'll wait.
I have made ​​sure that you are not competent enough. I do not see any reason to give you what or evidence that you still can not understand. You do not have the experience, so that I could seriously with you to discuss this topic.
LEON
DBB Ace
DBB Ace
Posts: 237
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:01 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Yet another cheats in D3 multiplayer thread

Post by LEON » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:14 pm

It's clear to me that you have mistaken lag and loss for cheating, and are now too proud to admit it and take the easiest way out "this is too advanced for you guys to understand" :roll:
"Much of the social history of the Western world, over the past three decades, has been a history of replacing what worked with what sounded good." -Thomas Sowell
User avatar
Foil
DBB Material Defender
DBB Material Defender
Posts: 4900
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:31 pm
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA

Re: Yet another cheats in D3 multiplayer thread

Post by Foil » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:38 pm

sigma wrote:You do not have the experience, so that I could seriously with you to discuss this topic.
Experience with what?

[Be very specific, because in every category (gameplay, server administration, networking issues, even cheat-detection systems), I have nearly a decade more experience than you do.]

...I'm still waiting for something specific.
User avatar
sigma
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2840
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:24 am
Location: Moscow

Re: Yet another cheats in D3 multiplayer thread

Post by sigma » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:30 am

From Krom explanation a lot of things became clear for me. Including concerning cheaters who can bypass the anti-cheat. Only in a multiplayer Descent they on another are called. It appears, it not cheaters, but this is skilled players who can compensate a difference in Ping, instability of connection, getting artificial advantage over others. And lags and crashes of other players out of the game, the regular fall Vortex, it's certainly a side effect that does not deserve attention :)
Foil wrote:...I'm still waiting for something specific.
I can teach you, but I will not do that. You are asking me to give a child a grenade and teach her ​​to use.
User avatar
Sirius
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 5435
Joined: Fri May 28, 1999 2:01 am
Location: Bellevue, WA
Contact:

Re: Yet another cheats in D3 multiplayer thread

Post by Sirius » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:56 pm

If you're not prepared to explain, you have to be prepared for people to assume you are lying... if that's OK with you I guess we have nothing more to say here.
User avatar
sigma
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2840
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:24 am
Location: Moscow

Re: Yet another cheats in D3 multiplayer thread

Post by sigma » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:09 pm

Sirius wrote:If you're not prepared to explain, you have to be prepared for people to assume you are lying... if that's OK with you I guess we have nothing more to say here.
You forgot one thing. I have no reason to lie. I am interested in preserving the maximum number of players in multiplayer, but not to improve my statistics. All I have to, I have already proved itself long ago in multiplayer D3.

But you're right, here are reluctant to discuss this topic.
User avatar
Top Gun
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 7147
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 3:01 am

Re: Yet another cheats in D3 multiplayer thread

Post by Top Gun » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:20 pm

The only "reluctance" I see here is your unwillingness to explain yourself. Either give some concrete examples, or accept the fact that no one will put any stock in your claims.
User avatar
sigma
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2840
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:24 am
Location: Moscow

Re: Yet another cheats in D3 multiplayer thread

Post by sigma » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:29 pm

Top Gun wrote:The only "reluctance" I see here is your unwillingness to explain yourself. Either give some concrete examples, or accept the fact that no one will put any stock in your claims.
I do not expect you to be able to do something. To do this, we need to improve manager D3 servers and anti-cheat. I understand that it is quite difficult. It is unlikely that someone will do in the foreseeable future. My only desire was to draw your attention to this problem. To save multiplayer D3.
User avatar
Sirius
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 5435
Joined: Fri May 28, 1999 2:01 am
Location: Bellevue, WA
Contact:

Re: Yet another cheats in D3 multiplayer thread

Post by Sirius » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:45 pm

sigma wrote:You forgot one thing. I have no reason to lie.
I dunno... refusal to give up? It's quite common.

I know this whole thread is probably not going to end well, but if you want to help deal with these cheats you're seeing, it's not going to happen just by sitting on the information. It sounds to me like Foil might be one of those people that can improve anti-cheat tools - so if you want this to make a difference, then working with him would at least be worth a try. If not, you're pretty much going to have to do it yourself... because nobody else can help save multiplayer D3.
User avatar
Duper
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 9205
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2001 3:01 am
Location: Beaverton, Oregon USA

Re: Yet another cheats in D3 multiplayer thread

Post by Duper » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:58 pm

I had seen cheating (though not recently). Rapid fire concussions and other weapon mods.(on non-modded servers)

got tired of it. that, and I got tired of mass drivers.
User avatar
BUBBALOU
DBB Benefactor
DBB Benefactor
Posts: 4193
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 1999 2:01 am
Location: Dallas Texas USA
Contact:

Re: Yet another cheats in D3 multiplayer thread

Post by BUBBALOU » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:59 am

I played D3 instareap for the first time in like 2 years last night on a VEX server... Only thing I see is 200ms of lag, had to adjust to my old dial up lead style. Lag does crazy things and only thing you can do is laugh!

Sigma is the same guy who refuses to pay for software and downloads hacked copies of games.... Of course everyone cheats to him/her it's part of the mentality of illegal use.

I seem to have a better workout dodging your stupidity than attempting to grasp the weight of your intelligence.
Post Reply