Bahagad Outbreak by DarkFlameWolf

Descent mission help and more WARNING: Spoilers inside!

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Bahagad Outbreak by DarkFlameWolf

Post by Diedel » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:18 pm

I don't really know where to post this, but as it's about a single player level set, I thought this might be a good place. :)

After offering Bahagad Outbreak for quite a while on my Descent 2 site already, I have finally come around to playing it, and all I can say is: If you are a Descent 2 fan and love singleplayer, do yourself a favor: Grab it and play it! It's a really well designed level set with lots of variety, great architecture, texturing, lighting and bot positioning, and if that wasn't enough already, offers a host of custom robots with custom AI.

There are two versions: Easy and normal, which is quite misleading, as it should be normal and hard. ;) Get the hard - oops: normal version and have fun! :)

Find the level under '3rd party singleplayer' (see the side menu).

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Post by DarkFlameWolf » Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:27 pm

O.o
holy crap! Well, glad you liked it.
Lost Levels was made after Bahagad, so that is naturally better in terms of design. Although with XP not allowing DOS batch files to work, you may have to fiddle around with the new .hog file to get the new player ships, new weapons and things for Lost Levels to work. But glad you liked it!
And as a bonus for getting to the end, the famed level designer Kruel made the final boss arena for Bahagad, so that is a treat to see.
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Post by Ziqidel » Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:20 pm

:wink:

It was fun while it lasted...

on level 6, I couldn't get into the red access door because there was a continuous malfunction and the game crashed instantly (i.e. it suddenly was not there and there was just deaktop instead) :lol:

So I just cheated through the rest and defeated that official-looking boss with a little aid from :roll: \"almighty\" and \"honestbob\"

I can't wait to finish my \"New World Order\" campaign; it will have 24 levels and 6 secrets, and it will definitely be around in a year, more or less. Levels 1 , S1 and 3 are complete now, and, even though I made them, some of them are really what define the word \"Hard\"!!! My brother says that I'm good at making confusing levels, and I'm sure anyone who calls themselves \"veteran\" would like to see this next level of training 8) then they'll all see that I'm no newb :roll:

Anyway back onto the subject: Lost levels is pretty good, but \"completely completing\" Descent 3 really makes you a demi-god. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, I use D2X-Rebirth to play lost levels because it implements all the modifications just right. In D2X-XL the custom weaponry is all invisible or whatever, but my campaign relies on D2X-XL and DLE-XP so that's no insult :oops: :P
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Post by DarkFlameWolf » Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:38 pm

Well, with the latest D2-XL betas, Diedel fixed that error crash on level 6. It was an assertion error dealing with the destruction of that robot by the red door. Furthermore with Lost Levels, you really are planning to top that mission with your New World Order eh? Is it going to have new robots, bosses, weapons, custom player ships, full soundtrack?

And I'm slowing working on a set of levels that are small in nature. (Meaning each level will be about 400 cubes or less, with a average goal of about 250 cubes per level) And I plan on making about 40-50 of these small 'scenarios' where each level is like a concept of a level but is completely based on that concept. We'll see how well it goes, slowly but surely.
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Post by Ziqidel » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:36 am

well... my mission has a few custom textures (easy to add with DLE-XP), and modified robots (also with DLE-XP), but today I was just trying to make new weapons that I thought of years ago, to replace the gauss, helix, phoenix, omega, flash, guided, prox-mine and earthshaker with ideas based on descent 1, and I tried to adjust them with HXMedit but that didn't work because it has \"cheat protection\". That is what I really need help on, so if you know how to get round that then you can appear in the credits twice (assuming it will be easy to add credits)

Well, you would appear in the credits firstly anyway since the briefing file uses the Lost Levels briefing as a template, and the whole mission setup was inspired by Lost Levels (e.g. having 24 levels, and the last level being called \"The Stroma\" :lol: :wink: . About custom polymodels though, I think it'll be too hard for me to use polytron but I will use it to make the \"Quadruplex Missile\" which should be all right. The Pyro-GX is not going to be changed though, and there will be no custom robots.

But some of the levels have lots of triggers and some have teleports, which make them *almost* as good as the lost levels IMO. Level S1, however, is VERY simple since its only purpose was extreme depth of water... However, level 10 is another story; it is being made very D3-ish and will probably have thousands more cubes than \"Lunar Outpost Reloaded\", just to get the detail right. (That doesn't mean it will be massive, though). Anyway, it doesn't focus on the 6 themes of Counterstrike / Lost Levels directly, and will have combinations instead.

I think it will end up with no custom models or weapons, and I may yet run out of ideas, but any large SP campaign will do for a little experience... don't you agree?
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Post by Ziqidel » Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:01 am

I forgot about the sound tracks: I've only put a basic set like the D2 counterstrike in, which are:

1 - D1 Level 8
2 - D1 Level 15
3 - D1 Level 11
4 - D1 Level 7

These suit the first 3 levels, and the last level, but definitely not some of the other levels, so I've put a heavily compressed set of mp3 files, which better suit the levels, into the hog file. The mp3s are the lowest quality that \"sound recorder\" could make, so I advise people to listen the originals if they have them, but they still go better than the mid soundtrack.
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Post by Ziqidel » Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:40 am

I thought I'd just mention:-
Ziqidel wrote:"completely completing" Descent 3 really makes you a demi-god
As you can see, this does not imply anything at all about NWO, yet you acted as though it did... :shock:

and I decided: no custom weapons. I want the mission made a bit quicker.
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Post by Diedel » Fri Oct 20, 2006 3:41 am

Ummm ... custom powerups in Lost Levels are invisible with D2X-XL?
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Post by Ziqidel » Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:03 am

No powerups are invisible, but I'm sure there are no modified powerups in lost levels ( :!: ). (That is, in terms of that the cyclone missile powerup looks the same as the mega missile powerup)

Anyway, I didn't say powerups, I said \"weapons\", but I meant projectiles. The ITD fired green shards in D2X-R and invisible shards in D2X-XL (BTW, this was like version 1.8.10 or so, and it may have been fixed but I doubt that). The \"Missile Launcher\" that the player had fired very-hard-to-see blue things, and, most of all, the Crystal Launcher fired invisible projectiles (which look nice, solid and red in D2X-R).

A funny thing happened though, I made a new pilot file in D2X-XL and then accidentally went on it in D2X-R (where it said \"trying to cheat eh? --> shame on me --> close\"), and then it couldn't be used in D2X-XL either. (btw, that wasn't a bug IMO).
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Post by Sirius » Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:13 am

Making custom models for Descent 2 of any kind is generally a path to frustration. Once you figure it out, it's well worth it though.
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Post by DarkFlameWolf » Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:24 am

speaking of which Sirius, you still have that polymodel you made for me a while back? I have an untextured .pol I think somewhere around here....
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Post by Diedel » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:16 am

It looks like its generally a problem to use the modified Lost Levels data with D2X-XL. It doesn't seem to work.
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Post by DarkFlameWolf » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:38 am

so how can one get it to work with d2-xl when it worked fine with vanilla Descent 2?
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Post by Diedel » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:32 am

I need to figure where the custom data hooks are. If I know that, figuring and fixing why D2X-XL doesn't use them should be easy.

(I had changed a lot of this stuff because the legacy code was causing all kinds of problems).
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Post by Diedel » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:38 am

Update: For me, the LL custom stuff works. You just need to install the stuff in the data subfolder if you have placed the Descent data there. It also looks like the original install batch file doesn't work properly (it didn't seem to work on my WinXP installation).
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Post by DarkFlameWolf » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:32 pm

no DOS batch file works anymore since XP came about. But if you open up the .bat using Notepad, you can see exactly what commands I used and which items you'll need to rename to get the most out of your Lost Level playing experience.
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Post by Diedel » Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:55 am

A few thoughts about Bahagad after having played about 2/3 of it.

I don't think it's a good idea to pack secret levels (where you cannot save) with a lot of really tough bots. This is made even worse when you constantly get trapped in small rooms together with them.

Not a good idea either to make lots of puzzles so that you find out the hard way, forcing you to restart the entire level to properly solve it. Particularly in secret level #2 there's a lot of walls blocking access to goodies, that get removed when shooting a switch or light and restored when approaching the goodies, forcing you to shoot the triggers with a smart missile. Usually you will find this out when it's too late -> reload. After the 4th or 5th time this gets bloody boring. Trapping the player in a tunnel with strong bots ahead also only serves to quickly deplete his shields, as there is no way to evade homing projectiles or energy blobs. Conclusion: 'hard' does not automatically equal 'fun'.

The 2nd secret level also contains a bug that even caused D2X-XL to crash (trigger pointing to a non-wall). I have fixed that bug and uploaded the fixed mission to my D2 site.

I also do not think it is all too funny to constantly place powerful bots behind doors, taking half of your shields the instant you open the door.

Otherwise the mission is absolutely great. Very good architecture, variety, good robot placement and difficulty.

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Post by DarkFlameWolf » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:27 am

funny how the fault was with the level when the level never crashed the original descent 2 program. But glad you liked Bahagad.
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Post by Diedel » Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:52 pm

Wolf,

Load the level in DLE-XP. Find the trigger toggling wall at cube 150, side 6. Then look at that cube's side. Then run a diagnosis. Then look at that trigger again.

DLE-XP handles triggers differently, because it can support more triggers. That's why it crashes.

If I cannot stand something, than it's this nonchalance with a touch of arrogance from someone clueless.
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Post by DarkFlameWolf » Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:52 pm

weird, just played the level on the latest D2X version, and it didn't crash at all, and I played through all the rooms....odd.

EDIT: And I meant my version of the mission, not the one you fixed.
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Post by Chaos Death Saurer » Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:44 pm

Well, as long as we're critiquing, I'd like to say I do think that both Lost Levels and Bahagad had great architecture. Although there were a few parts in LL where the solution to a puzzle was a little too well hidden.

Other than that, and a few other gripes (LL story seemed a bit weak), they were very good levels.
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Post by Sirius » Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:47 am

DarkFlameWolf wrote:speaking of which Sirius, you still have that polymodel you made for me a while back? I have an untextured .pol I think somewhere around here....
Hm. Missed this post for a while, but I should still have it, yeah.

I know fairly well how tricky LL/Bahagad were meant to be... although more recently I do have to agree somewhat that making stuff obscenely hard isn't necessarily the best way to do things. (It depends on your audience though!)

Edit: Yes, I have it, and incidentally the correspondence involved. I'd kind of forgotten about it since it seemed to run aground about a year ago.
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Post by DarkFlameWolf » Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:12 am

well basically, as long as you get the model complete with clipping/gun points and stuff. Basically, I can use that model to make a variety of enemies based off that one model, just textured differently for each 'type' of robot. And maybe have one come in a bigger size and that'll be a boss version of that very same model. Because it could go well with the current story of how a new brand of robot is replicating itself in various forms to fire different weapons. (does this post make ANY sense at all?) Its mainly meant to cut down on your workload for new robots, but its like encountering new enemies that are just retextured but with different weaponry.

EDIT: Also, about my difficulty, once you know my tricks and traps for setting up robots behind some doors, you'll always expect it and be wary of opening up doors without your finger on the trigger key.
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Post by Diedel » Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:41 pm

Hm ... maybe the level only crashed when using the debug version of D2X-XL. Anyway, it is flawed exactly where I told you, and I managed to get myself trapped because of that bug.
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Post by Ziqidel » Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:36 am

Oh yeah, I remember in those Bahagad secret levels, I enabled \"-secretsave\" in D2X-XL because I could see they were designed with being able to save in mind :wink:

The ONLY secret level that ever got the balance of hardness and fun right was \"Fort Pyr Security Training Post\" (Vertigo level S1) - the Smelter 2 traps were hard enough to make that the 3rd-hardest level in the official campaigns imo, but with teleports close by, you could sort-of save in the base level. (the 2nd hardest is Mercenary level 7 and the first is Retribution level S2 even though you are allowed save inside it).

I've decided to change the name of my NWO mission to \"The Wyzar System\" instead, which is where the mission takes place, even though the story will not be changed (it still has you working next to the \"New World Order\" in the first 20 levels or so, and then you join the \"NC\" for the last four, kind-of like the Mercenary campaign).

The other change to the mission is that it will have D1 and D2 original midi files for all the levels, but Bahagad Outbreak Level 1 midi file for one of them (I couldn't resist :twisted: ). OMG, this mission is going to be good.

And when it's made, I'll alpha-test it fully (in insane skill level) to make sure nothing is wrong with it. I just hope I have put enough clues in the levels to show where the vital secret doors are (i.e. with switches that unlock doors you need to go through to progress).
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Post by Diedel » Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:23 pm

Just finished Bahagad. Very nice mission. When I saw the end room though, I again knew who the Master of D2 Level Design is :roll: ... Kruel is just a class of his own.
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Post by DarkFlameWolf » Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:19 pm

wasn't that room just the greatest?! Well, hope you get time to play Lost Levels in the future.
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Post by Ziqidel » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:47 am

but I bet I will be instead, when I've finished making a hangar like in D3 Mercenary Level 3, with D2X-XL. The plan I've done suggests it will take between 1000 and 1500 cubes for that room... I wonder how it will end up - crashy or amazing? And I wonder if I'll have enough cubes left for the rest of the level...
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Post by DarkFlameWolf » Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:32 am

there's the problem. Despite how awesome First Strike: Revived was with 1000+ cubes that Diedel made, sure it looked awesome with all those cubes and Descent 3 type architecture, but it ran like a biatch. I have a 2 ghz comp, with 1 gig ram and a 512 meg nvidia 6800 graphics card. I can run Oblivion on medium settings and run Fear on high settings. And that level still slows down for me and its DESCENT 2 for crying out loud.
Its nice and all to make detailed rooms like that with millions of cubes, but it'll still run slow regardless of how fast a computer you have for one reason alone: You're trying to force the engine to do something it isn't normally designed to do.
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Post by Diedel » Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:13 am

Wolf,

you are having all kinds of trouble with your machine which I don't have. LOR runs fine for me even on an Athlon XP 1700+ machine with a Geforce 2 MX 400. Not to speak of faster machines. Frankly, I blame your problems on something in your (hardware or game) setup.

FYI: OpenGL style lighting is CPU limited. Your gfx card can be as fast as can be - if your CPU doesn't cut it, you will get in trouble with OpenGL style lighting: It works per Vertex, and a complex levels means many vertices. This effect is even amplified with hires models, as these have a very high vertex count. It isn't for no reason that you can turn off OpenGL style lighting for objects. It is also not really necessary to use it in D2X-XL levels, as these already have pre-rendered colored light.

So please don't make assumptions about the D2 engine if you have no clue about it.

Kruel has a special sense of space and light. Whatever he has done has an incredible atmosphere. If I had enough money, I would try to bribe him into making new D2(X-XL) levels.
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Post by Chaos Death Saurer » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:35 pm

DarkFlameWolf wrote:there's the problem. Despite how awesome First Strike: Revived was with 1000+ cubes that Diedel made, sure it looked awesome with all those cubes and Descent 3 type architecture, but it ran like a biatch. I have a 2 ghz comp, with 1 gig ram and a 512 meg nvidia 6800 graphics card. I can run Oblivion on medium settings and run Fear on high settings. And that level still slows down for me and its DESCENT 2 for crying out loud.
Its nice and all to make detailed rooms like that with millions of cubes, but it'll still run slow regardless of how fast a computer you have for one reason alone: You're trying to force the engine to do something it isn't normally designed to do.
I have a slight lag issue, but nothing serious. I have a 1.8 GHz processor, 1 Gig RAM, and a GeForce FX 5200. I have problems running Doom 3 on Low.

Try updating your hardware drivers.
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Post by Ziqidel » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:36 am

23rd November 2006 Edit: [Nice of you to make me delete my old comment that used to be here] :)
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Post by DarkFlameWolf » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:37 am

nice of you to use the Bahagad Outbreak topic as a update channel for your mission! LOL :lol:
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Post by Diedel » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:01 pm

Zigidel,

please make your own thread instead of hijacking others. ;)
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Post by DarkFlameWolf » Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:52 pm

you mispelled his name Diedel. :P
Anyway, if you were taken a liking to the final boss model, then you have to thank Peter Hodge for that excellent piece of work. Furthermore, he also helped make the 6 new bosses that appear in Lost Levels. So he is one talented modeler.
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Post by Ziqidel » Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:06 am

All right, no more mention of Wyzar System until it comes out :P

I don't think it's worth making a new thread for it.

**

I thought I'd mention I made Lunar Outpost Reloaded work by adding a switch to enable the red access key to be got - there was no trigger for it according to D2X-XL (wierd thing for Diedel to do :lol: :lol: :lol: )
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Post by Diedel » Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:56 am

There was a bug in the level. The red key force field is disabled by shooting the blue robot inside the tube at that room's bottom. Fixed level is already available for a while.
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Re: Bahagad Outbreak by DarkFlameWolf

Post by AlexanderBorisov » Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:02 pm

The level set has good geometry but I don't think it is playable on reasonable difficulty (I mean Ace or Insane), without cheats (by which I mean using DX-XL inventory, any weapon mods, reloads, and deaths unless you are doing continuous run through all levels in one sitting). Level 1 is probably possible (although extremely hard), but the second one, which unloads dosens of those mercury spamming robots which fire 7 missiles per volley, and many are in snipe mode. Often in traps that are opened one cube away from you. BTW I did stock campaigns, TEW , LL, some other missions on Insane no death no save, without major complaints, but this one is simply unbalanced. I wish there was a playable version...
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Re: Bahagad Outbreak by DarkFlameWolf

Post by LightWolf » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:50 pm

Hence why he made the "Easy" version so many years ago.
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Re: Bahagad Outbreak by DarkFlameWolf

Post by akula65 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:02 pm

LightWolf wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:50 pm
Hence why he made the "Easy" version so many years ago.
Hence why she made the "Easy" version so many years ago.
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