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Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)
http://www.descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19697
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Author:  Avder [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6.

how are you going to make that all work in rebirth?

Author:  Xfing [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6.

By having ready replacement files for DESCENT2. HAM, DESCENT2.S11 and DESCENT2.S22.

Everything is fixed inside these files already. The D1 robots and bosses have re-inserted sound files extracted from D1, many of which have been worked on by me to port them to 22 kHz and ensure at least moderate quality. This does sacrifice some of the multiplayer sounds, though. The two sound files can already be used with any D2 level pack which makes heavy use of D1 robots.

Author:  Avder [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6.

Hm, I see.

Well then.

Anyhoo, back to D1. Level 9 is very close to finished.

Author:  Xfing [ Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6.

Avder wrote:
Hm, I see.

Well then.

Anyhoo, back to D1. Level 9 is very close to finished.


I hate that level. It's treacherous due to the fact that practically 80% of the level is connected without the use of doors ;__; Good luck.

Author:  Naphtha [ Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6.

Definitely too much potential for robots to wander in Level 9... and wander they do, because most of them are set to Station IIRC. Sounds like it's partly a game of chance, so I'll wish you good luck on improving your time.

Author:  Avder [ Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6.

NaphthaTurisas wrote:
Definitely too much potential for robots to wander in Level 9... and wander they do, because most of them are set to Station IIRC. Sounds like it's partly a game of chance, so I'll wish you good luck on improving your time.


wandering robots was why about 95% of my attempts failed before I decided on a new approach and found a pretty solid route. Previously what I had been trying to do was go and grab the plasma cannon right away. The problem with that is that, while I could get in there and blow everything up and come out with the blue key, by the time I did, all of the robots had started wandering, so I would have to go on hunting expeditions that cost precious minutes and usually would end with a spider popping out from behind a corner at point blank range while a lifter grabbed me from behind and held me down.

My new strategy forgets the plasma and spreadfire cannons until later and tears through the wide open section to start with. As an added bonus to that, by the time I go after the blue key, the robots in THAT sections have tended to group themselves up and pretty much throw themselves in the path of my plasma cannons.

Author:  Avder [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6.

My main monitor died, so I picked up a new one. 1080p, 2ms response time. My aim is suddenly a lot better. Holy crap!

Author:  Avder [ Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6.

Going back and going to polish up some of the levels I already have done and see if I can get them to a point where I feel comfortable starting to release them on youtube.

I've got level 1 down to 2:21. Shooting for 2:15 or lower.

Author:  vision [ Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6.

Avder wrote:
I've got level 1 down to 2:21. Shooting for 2:15 or lower.

Oh Jesus Christ, this is like Olympic level gaming. Aren't there organizations that keep records for game times and high scores? Call Guinness Book of Records?

Author:  Avder [ Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6.

vision wrote:
Avder wrote:
I've got level 1 down to 2:21. Shooting for 2:15 or lower.

Oh Jesus Christ, this is like Olympic level gaming. Aren't there organizations that keep records for game times and high scores? Call Guinness Book of Records?


Yes, however none of my D1 times would be eligible because I am playing on a source port, and even if I played using Descentr.exe in dosbox it wouldnt be eligible because its played on an emulator. If I wanted any of my times to be recognized by those organizations, I would need to find an old 486 or something and play on there.

There are already some great speedruns of Descent on youtube, played on hotshot difficulty, by legendary speedrunner stx-Vile: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 5A323F8622
He completed those runs using I think d1x 1.4 or 1.43, I'm not sure which. And even on hotshot, they are quite spectacular.

Now, if I were to play Descent 3 for the purposes of speedrunning, I could get those times recognized. In fact if you check my youtube, I have a pure speed run of D3 level 7 on there that I think is pretty decent for an early attempt.

Author:  Avder [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6.

Level 1 down to 2:17. Now targeting 2:05 or lower.

Author:  Avder [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6.

Hit 2:07. I feel happy with it, so, up it goes:

Image

On to level 2. My best there is 4:51, shooting for 4:30.

Also changed the name of the thread to better reflect how this is expanding to other levels.

I should probably start posting completed runs in the original post.

Author:  Avder [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

I seem to have vastly underestimated myself. Just did a 3:54 on level 2, but I was not recording a demo cause I thought I was just practicing. Shooting now for 3:40.

Author:  Marvin [ Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

I just casually found this topic and since I speedrunned some levels on insane with same rules as Avder in near past, I would like to share some results here:).

Level 1: 1:48
Level 2: 3:08
Level 3: 3:36
Level 4: 3:06
Level 5: 4:41
Level 6: 4:18

You can see replays of these runs here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQyU2Ip ... 7uLGIRhEzc

Didn't try other levels yet, but I probably will in the future, if I will find enough time for it:).

Author:  Avder [ Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

Well, part of my intent when I started running stuff a few years ago was to increase interest in it, and I seem to have succeeded.

Bravo, you've blown everything I've done on those levels out of the water.

Author:  Marvin [ Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

Yeah, I don't think, I would do it without seeing your youtube channel, so I was probably influenced by you :). Anyway, are you going to improve your runs, or try to make news in further levels? I didn't play since level 6, somehow lost desire for continuation..

Author:  Avder [ Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

It's always something that's been in the back of my mind. I'm on a joystick game kick lately, so I might get around to trying to make a few good runs. Last I remember I was stuck on Level 9 after having finally gotten a time on level 8 I was somewhat happy with. Took for fucking ever to get that one. You've probably beaten it already. I haven't looked.

I'm getting a CH Pro throttle so I'll probably play through descent on Ace or Insane just to acclimate myself to analog sliding. I'm going to set the throttle axis up in a strange way. Instead of having the full range of the physical axis manipulate the full range of the logical axis, I'm going to set it such that it manipulates just the middle to maximum part of the range. Then I'm going to program one of the buttons to subtract half of that axis range, so that when the button is held it will operate the axis from its minimum to its middle. basically pushing the throttle away will go from 0 to full forward, and then with the reverse button held pulling the throttle back will go from zero to full reverse.

Author:  Marvin [ Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

Quote:
Last I remember I was stuck on Level 9 after having finally gotten a time on level 8 I was somewhat happy with. Took for **** ever to get that one. You've probably beaten it already. I haven't looked.

I have played only 1-6 and then stopped. But same as in your case, it is still in my mind.. Anyway, I can imagine levels 8 and 9 are quite brutal for "insane-max" speedrunning.

About your new joystick setting idea: Looks like a complication to me. Is it really useful at some point? I have never experimented about settings and still use just a keyboard. I'm lazy to learn something new, but I admit, it can be worth of...

Author:  Avder [ Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

Well if I'm gonna use the mini joystick on the throttle for analog slides, I have to control forward and backwards somehow.

Author:  Marvin [ Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

finally decided to make level 7. I tried to do it under 7 minutes, but that unfortunately didin't happen. But I'm still ok with 7:03 unless I will find my route bad..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpZHJ5wHy5s

Author:  Marvin [ Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

what is your time in level 8 avder? This one is really hard to speedrun. I had just one deathless attempt so far - 7:46. Best time with death was 7:17..

Author:  Marvin [ Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

So, it was a real pain, but I finally set a good time on level 8 (6:27). It is harder then it actually looks, a lot of cooperation by robots is needed for a good run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBY9cVn ... e=youtu.be

Author:  Avder [ Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

Yeah the thing about level 8 is that it just takes so much cooperation from the bots to have a chance of a death free run. The lack of Quad Lasers also means that, depending on the route, you're either going to be doing most of the run with plain lasers, or trying to get the bots to cooperate and let you get one of the two plasma cannons early. Neither of which happens very often.

The problem is that somehow this level is both extremely compact and rather vast. There's no really good route that hits all three keys without some backtracking.

Took forever for me to finish it without dying, and quite honestly it was this level and level 9 that just burnt me out on doing runs in every level in the game.

Level 9 is even worse. The whole thing is wide open so you'll almost have to verify it frame by frame afterward to make sure everything died, and even then, stuff can get blown up by brown hulk missile splash damage, so you might think you missed one when you really nailed it off camera. Never managed to get to the reactor room. Getting multiple cloaks off the cloaked lifters in the lava pit is crucial to even be able to fully attempt something.

Don't remember what my level 8 time was. Mid 7 minutes I think?

Author:  Marvin [ Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

I agree, level 9 is worse. I didnt try it seriously yet, because Im lazy to find a good route. And even if I find something, it would be really hard and lucky to make satisfying run.

Level 8 is complex, but I was quite confident with my route quickly. Going for early plasma didnt feel really worth to me, so I actually didnt try that way. But ofc, I could be wrong... What was your way?

One more thing about level 8 - I did similar run to my 6:27 before, but accidentally didnt save it, so I "had to" play it again. That was frustrating and I was close to give it up after many and many failed tries after..

Btw I recently planned a way in level 10, so I will go for it, when I find some free time..

Author:  vision [ Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

Marvin wrote:
I agree, level 9 is worse. I didnt try it seriously yet, because Im lazy to find a good route. And even if I find something, it would be really hard and lucky to make satisfying run.

I have a route that is pretty reliable when it comes to bot-roam, but I doubt it could be used in a speed-run. I never do speed runs. My best effort on Level 9 insane, cold-start, no-deaths, total-elimination is around 18 minutes (not very fast!).

Author:  Avder [ Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

vision wrote:
Marvin wrote:
I agree, level 9 is worse. I didnt try it seriously yet, because Im lazy to find a good route. And even if I find something, it would be really hard and lucky to make satisfying run.

I have a route that is pretty reliable when it comes to bot-roam, but I doubt it could be used in a speed-run. I never do speed runs. My best effort on Level 9 insane, cold-start, no-deaths, total-elimination is around 18 minutes (not very fast!).


18 minutes is indeed not very fast.

It is, however, a start that others could build off of. I don't suppose you recorded a demo?

And if I recall, my level 8 route was to the blue key area, kill everything around it and in the nearby ring corridor and energy center, get the blue key and head back to the blue key door facing away from the start point and enter there, killing everything, sniping the red hulk guarding the yellow key with homing missiles and being extra careful not to trigger the matcen at the bottom of that whole place, head back up the way I came and grab the cloak near where the blue key was and storm through the yellow key door, killing as much as possible while the cloak is in effect and grabbing the plasma there. Get the red key and then refill in the energy center near where the blue key was, and then head down into that cramped maze area with all the lifters and spider bots and clear that out. Take out the brown hulk and then the two vulcan bots guarding the smart missile. Clear through the rest of that area until it loops around down to the door on the right, clear the lower corridor that connects to where the yellow key was, grab the invuln hidden behind one of the trap doors and blitz the reactor room and exit.

Author:  Marvin [ Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

yeah, that is the other version I was also thinking about.

Tried level 10 more seriously today, lost 5:20-5:30 try, because of getting killed by reactor, when everything else was done... So, hopefuly next time..:)

Author:  Marvin [ Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

I was more successful with level 10 today. Did 5:33 first, then 5:21,. Unfortunatelly I get desoriented while going to exit for some reason and lost sub 5:20 by it, but it is still solid run I believe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHRoTQUiSNg

Author:  Marvin [ Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

Looks like no one is interested in speedrunning this, pity. On the other hand, I didn't expect the opposite, so..
I tried secret level 1 today for the very first try and it went better then expected = I finished it. And since I thought it was an ok run, I didn't try to go for a better one.
Since you can't cold start secret levels, I finished level 10 with basic weaponry and saved it at starting point of S1 level. That is why I have some points at start. I know, there is a pack of secret levels in database, but it means different level music and I'm also not sure about reactor strength, it might be different, so I rather did it this way.
So, time is 4:24 and for a case someone want to see..: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1WuOJgBMl0

Author:  Marvin [ Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

today I skipped to level 22 to see, what I can do compared to avder's run. I think it went well, I managed to do it more then a minute faster (4:14).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov9mtJZQMTw

Author:  Marvin [ Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

improved level 22 to 4:02. Was hoping for sub 4 mins, but I believe it is still really solid run, so I'm done with this level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKmKEJf66Yk

Author:  vision [ Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

Marvin wrote:
improved level 22 to 4:02. Was hoping for sub 4 mins, but I believe it is still really solid run, so I'm done with this level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKmKEJf66Yk
I can see where you would have gotten 3:59 if you were a machine and not a human. Till then you must settle for almost machine-like.

Author:  Alter-Fox [ Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

Just think, YOU don't want to get the virus! :D

Author:  Marvin [ Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

vision wrote:
Marvin wrote:
improved level 22 to 4:02. Was hoping for sub 4 mins, but I believe it is still really solid run, so I'm done with this level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKmKEJf66Yk
I can see where you would have gotten 3:59 if you were a machine and not a human. Till then you must settle for almost machine-like.

hehe, I'm fine with that :)

Alter-Fox wrote:
Just think, YOU don't want to get the virus! :D

true :D

Author:  LightWolf [ Sun Mar 20, 2016 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

Marvin wrote:
Since you can't cold start secret levels, I finished level 10 with basic weaponry and saved it at starting point of S1 level. That is why I have some points at start. I know, there is a pack of secret levels in database, but it means different level music and I'm also not sure about reactor strength, it might be different, so I rather did it this way.


The reactor should be weaker, if I recall my experiments correctly.

Despite what I thought, however, the reactor ID has nothing to do with it...

Author:  Marvin [ Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

LightWolf wrote:
Marvin wrote:
Since you can't cold start secret levels, I finished level 10 with basic weaponry and saved it at starting point of S1 level. That is why I have some points at start. I know, there is a pack of secret levels in database, but it means different level music and I'm also not sure about reactor strength, it might be different, so I rather did it this way.


The reactor should be weaker, if I recall my experiments correctly.

Despite what I thought, however, the reactor ID has nothing to do with it...


So I checked it and S1 reactor is same as in Level 2, S2 is same as in Level 4 and S3 = level 6. Interesting. So I think it was good decision to not use the secret level pack.

Author:  Marvin [ Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

Level 12 - 3:38
Hardest part in this level is going for cloak at start. One of red hulks usually sees you quickly and you die during entering the secret in tower or in better case you stay alive with low shield. But sometimes he notices you lately so you can enter that secret without loosing a shield, but that is rare. Also the brown hulk can you slap in the face easilly. If you survive this with 50+ shield, you have a good chance to survive whole level. Since I had 96 there, I already "knew" this is going to be a good try.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO8xHEc5MCI

Author:  Avder [ Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

Excellent cloak route at the start. You could save a few seconds at the end by positioning yourself nearer the exit shaft as you kill the reactor and the two red hulks that guard it.

Author:  Avder [ Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

Also regarding secret levels, I think they need to be given a special exception from the "cold start" rule, in that you will have played through the levels they connect in. However, you should end those levels with a death so that you start the secret level with the base loadout. Also the fact that you managed to create your save file while still showing the lightning from being spawned in the level is a good sign.

I would also propose that because the secret levels almost have to be played like that, a penalty time of 1 second should be added to all run times unless the save file starts in the preceding level and you die on camera during the exit sequence, at which point timing would begin after "prepare for descent" vanishes and you start the level. This would be one hell of a pain in the ass to do multiple attempts however.

Now, secret levels in D2 are another monster entirely. Since you can exit and enter multiple times, those ones should probably start from the cube just in front of the portal, with energy and shields at or below 100, with special care taken to either get there with only level 1 lasers, or never use lasers during the run. You'd probably also need to allow the player to return to the base level and re-enter as a form of warping.

A further difficulty arises in demo recording and playback with d1x rebirth. The demo records properly, but it does not play back properly, as entering a secret level while playing back a demo ends the demo.

The original Dos D2 executable however does play the demo properly, so it can be used to play back the demo and capture video from it.

The best solution for any of this however would be to capture while playing AND demo recording so that the recording can be used to watch, and the demo file itself can be used by anyone to verify that all the robots are dead. In fact, capturing while playing could be better in some cases because the point values properly display as they are added to the score whereas the score just increments in demo playback. The players score is also the best way to track robot destruction in most cases, as one can see how much just got added to the score to infer what type of robot was just destroyed. Unfortunately, robots can be killed by missile fire from hulks and platforms, and then I do not think they count for the score. The robots death would need to be determined either by visually seeing the robot destroyed, or a powerup that could only have been dropped by a robot dying, or some other means. Because of the way robots can roam, simply seeing that a robot is not where it's supposed to be would not be proof of destruction at all.

It would be nice to have a special version of rebirth that tracks the death of starting robots for speedrun purposes. The problem though is that if we ever hope to get D1/D2 individual level speedruns on a website like speed demos archive, we will probably need to have some kind of authoritative executeable that can be verified as behaving virtually identical to descentr.exe and the d2 exe for in game purposes. Unfortunately, I believe the only way we will ever get D1 and D2 on those sites is to find an old 486/66MHz machine and capture the VGA output while playing. If we use a much more powerful machine, homers will be far too powerful. If we use a slower machine, too many frames will be dropped. We can compensate partially by playing in higher resolutions.

Author:  vision [ Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Going Rambo on D1 level 6 (And other levels)

Just a reminder, I extracted the D1 secret levels to their own mission file:

http://www.enspiar.com/dmdb/viewMission.php?id=586

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