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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:59 pm 
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Haha agreed! Well, the Ice Boss of D2 is definitely something to look out for. I mean, I know very well how frustrating it can be. But at the same time, I don't care. There is plenty of annoyance, but not so much of pulse-pounding terror. I'm talking about for example that feeling when you play Doom's level "Halls of the Damned" with its own music track in the background. These are those moments of pulse-pounding fear and excitement, where your killer instinct kicks in and you're ready to flinch whenever even the lowliest demon jumps you from around the corner. And I still feel it even today. Descent may not be entirely that kind of game, but the D1 bosses used to supply me with very similar experiences when I was younger and more impressionable. If I had played D2 when I was a kid, it probably could have felt the same, but right now I can't really tell.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:22 pm 
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Xfing wrote:
...Jack up [the Guardian's] HP by 3000 and you're certain that the boss battle will be remembered.


What about doubling it (Jacking it up by 5500)?

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:01 pm 
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LightWolf wrote:
Well... I do have a new change to the boss lineup.

1. Zeta Aquilae
2. Quartzon
3. D1L7
4. Brimspark
5. Tycho Brahe (Change weapons to Baloris Prime)
6. Vertigo Level 7
7. D2 Final (Matter immunity)
8. Limefrost Spiral (Change weapons to Tycho Brahe)
9. Baloris Prime (Change weapons to Limefrost Spiral)
10. Death Hulk (New Boss, Robot Fusion, Robot Mega, Matter immunity)
11. Guardian (Upgrade weapons to Player version)

EDIT:
The Death Hulk will have to have Player fusion, as I can't seem to find Robot Fusion in RBoTEdit's list of weapons.


If you want that death hulk to be hard, put it in a series of confining caverns to maximize splash damage from the megas. Otherwise anyone who can trichord can just get in extremely close and let loose with the helix while the bosses guns cant track fast enough to catch the player at point blank range. The baloris prime boss can keep track of the player with his gauss because of how fast those projectiles fly, but the merc missiles never hit.

Also I'm talking about on insane difficulty here.


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:02 pm 
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Avder wrote:
LightWolf wrote:
Well... I do have a new change to the boss lineup.

1. Zeta Aquilae
2. Quartzon
3. D1L7
4. Brimspark
5. Tycho Brahe (Change weapons to Baloris Prime)
6. Vertigo Level 7
7. D2 Final (Matter immunity)
8. Limefrost Spiral (Change weapons to Tycho Brahe)
9. Baloris Prime (Change weapons to Limefrost Spiral)
10. Death Hulk (New Boss, Robot Fusion, Robot Mega, Matter immunity)
11. Guardian (Upgrade weapons to Player version)

EDIT:
The Death Hulk will have to have Player fusion, as I can't seem to find Robot Fusion in RBoTEdit's list of weapons.


If you want that death hulk to be hard, put it in a series of confining caverns to maximize splash damage from the megas. Otherwise anyone who can trichord can just get in extremely close and let loose with the helix while the bosses guns cant track fast enough to catch the player at point blank range. The baloris prime boss can keep track of the player with his gauss because of how fast those projectiles fly, but the merc missiles never hit.

Also I'm talking about on insane difficulty here.


The boss arena is rather small (Think of the blue key area in Lost Levels Level 22), and I don't plan on changing it. Besides, ROBOT Megas target better than PLAYER Megas. However, I can place MAXes in small areas in Sheltem Mech Factory.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:11 pm 
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Never played Lost Levels. Give me an example from First Strike, Counter Strike, or Vertigo?


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:57 am 
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The lower far part of the Brimspark boss arena, with an extra side section.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:35 am 
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LightWolf wrote:
Xfing wrote:
...Jack up [the Guardian's] HP by 3000 and you're certain that the boss battle will be remembered.


What about doubling it (Jacking it up by 5500)?


Why so low? Let's make it 15000 while we're at it -__-

Seriously, either exaggeration runs in your blood or you just haven't played Descent much on higher difficulties.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:08 pm 
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LightWolf wrote:
Seriously, either exaggeration runs in your blood or you just haven't played Descent much on higher difficulties.
I only ever play ace or insane in MP. But I am serious.

Am I doing that topic revival thing again?

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:48 am 
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LightWolf wrote:
LightWolf wrote:
Seriously, either exaggeration runs in your blood or you just haven't played Descent much on higher difficulties.
I only ever play ace or insane in MP. But I am serious.

Am I doing that topic revival thing again?


Topics on DBB are actually very long lived so nobody minds necros.

As for the subject, I have tested the tweaked Red Guard on Insane - not only is his missile barrage the wickedest thing I've ever seen, but he takes around 13 Earthshakers to the back to die. And his hp is 8500 at the moment I believe. That's definitely enough.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:40 pm 
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I've honestly really hated bosses that needed to be attacked from behind.


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:35 am 
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LightWolf wrote:
Xfing wrote:
Seriously, either exaggeration runs in your blood or you just haven't played Descent much on higher difficulties.
I only ever play ace or insane in MP. But I am serious.

Try playing SP on insane then tell me again how you feel about jacking up Boss HPs. I think it's a ridiculous idea. Having super hard bosses turns the game into a boring hit an run / snipe fest (like D2 Ice). When your ability to finish a level is dependent on special items like cloak, invulnerability, and special secondaries you have failed as a game designer. If players have to hoard weapons and save power-ups you are essentially taking freedom away. The level turns into a math problem instead of a cool action game.


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:14 am 
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If we had more complex behavior options, we could take some inspiration from Dark Souls, but alas...


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:17 am 
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DarkFlameWolf wrote:
I've honestly really hated bosses that needed to be attacked from behind.

So was TEW Level 25 your attempt to spread the hate? Because mission accomplished. :P

Anyway, looked through the modded HAM's for Descent 1.5 and those are some freaking high HP numbers you gave to the bosses, Xfing. I had plenty of trouble with the default boss settings on Insane, so I'm hoping there'll be plenty of weapons to go around in the boss rooms... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:59 pm 
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NaphthaTurisas wrote:
DarkFlameWolf wrote:
I've honestly really hated bosses that needed to be attacked from behind.

So was TEW Level 25 your attempt to spread the hate? Because mission accomplished. :P

Anyway, looked through the modded HAM's for Descent 1.5 and those are some freaking high HP numbers you gave to the bosses, Xfing. I had plenty of trouble with the default boss settings on Insane, so I'm hoping there'll be plenty of weapons to go around in the boss rooms... ;)


Definitely will. I'm gonna make sure there's more than enough invulnerabilities, cloaks and munitions, so don't worry. The Red Guard armed with Player Megas and Shakers is by far the vilest thing I've ever seen, and he takes around 13 shaker children series to the back before he rolls. I'm pretty satisfied with the bosses overall, though. They are different enough from the originals to elicit a frustrated "Why isn't it dead yet!?" but not enough to make a player get stuck. Tinkering with their invulnerabilities will also be a mean surprise to those used to different ways of handling them. Overall I think it might be interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:17 pm 
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BTW, I really like when a game's rewarding. But to be rewarding, a game must also be challenging. I remember back when I was a kid, I got stuck on D1's first boss for months. On Trainee. For some reason I couldn't do anything against it, except cower in the entry tunnel and hope for a miracle. When I delved into the room, I knew these were probably my last 5 seconds alive because soon I'd get face smarted or demolished by plasma children.

That was way before I learned how to strafe, of course. I used the default keyboard setup, which only supported turning, not sliding. But I did finally manage to beat the boss, somehow.

And getting to explore the remaining levels of the game was a reward in itself. And that's how one should look at bosses - obstacles that you should have a challenge in beating, to make you feel you earned the right to play the following levels. For me the feeling of finally getting to use plasma or smart missiles when I found them in level 8 was something unforgettable, very much unlike today, when i beat a pushover boss after pushover boss and feel no joy and no feeling of accomplishment about it.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:03 pm 
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Except once you really get the hang of it, the level 7 boss becomes a total pushover too. But that is also a reward for sticking with the game and actually developing your skills.


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:41 pm 
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My story for the level 7 boss is exactly the same except I didn't beat it until I came back to Descent about twelve years later. And then I was better at gaming in general, I was playing on a higher difficulty, and he was a pushover.
The nice thing about that was, there was a lot of Descent left for me, twelve years later :P.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:24 pm 
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Lucky you!

BTW, I thought about this one more deeply only two days ago... the D1 bosses used more advanced scripting than the D2 ones. In D1 you could hear the perpetual ticking sound - the stuff of nightmares - at all times, even right after opening the red door. And in D2 it's only activated once the bot sees you, although it continues from that point on. Also, compare the script for robot spawning for the D2 bots to the one used by the D1 final boss. In D1 it could spawn robots spontaneously and around the whole freaking room, and in D2 bosses only spawned robots in their vicinity and in response to being attacked. Though seemingly minor, that was quite a bit of wasted potential IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:37 pm 
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The level 7 boss didn't spawn bots.
And I'm still not sure how the level 27 boss was scripted to spawn bots all over the room. My mind must be more objective, I found the D2 bosses scarier because you can't hear them to tell where they are until either you find them... or they find you!

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:47 am 
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Sure, the first boss didn't spawn bots at all. And that's another thing you can't have in D2 - if a boss doesn't spawn bots, it doesn't cloak or teleport either. The AI for the D1 boss robots got tragically castrated in D2.

As for hearing the boss sound right off the bat or later, it provides two different kinds of suspense, I think. In the first case you know that you're in a boss level as soon as you open the red door, while in the latter case you might still be expecting a reactor until it's too late.

On the other hand, bosses in D2 appear in very regular intervals, so you'd expect a boss anyway. This can work only in Vertigo, which is very D1-like when it comes to bosses, probably intentionally. And that's a good thing.

Personally I'm in huge favor of the boss cry from D1. So eerie.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:33 am 
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Yes, I like the sound at least as much as most of D2's boss sounds (and more than some!). It just doesn't scare me as much as NO SOUND AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it could have been put to better use if there were a couple more bosses in D1 though. It's potential use for "oh crap there's a boss here!" was kind of wasted.
My favourite boss "voice" is the baloris prime boss though ;). And honestly I think that's the only boss "arena" in any of the games or expansions that you might possibly mistake, by its design, for a reactor room. Although you won't because by that point you know there's a boss every four mines.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:24 am 
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Haphazard boss placement in D1,5 could remedy this issue, at least partially. Let's just hope that not everyone who downloads missions from DMB frequents this forum :D

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:46 am 
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too late :P


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:50 am 
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The level 27 boss robot spawns were likely hard-coded to the boss type - that was pretty much Parallax's methodology for anything once-off in D1/2.


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:22 am 
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Yeah. Too bad the code didn't get carried over to D2. Like, seriously. I'll never forgive Parallax the way they made D2, sacrificing so much perfectly good D1 content in the process. Sure, the game would have been bigger, but still...

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:52 pm 
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Don't worry, they did introduce all-new once-off hacks into D2.


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:11 pm 
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Well, gotta admit some of that coding was pretty sweet, like for example the Fusion defense mechanism for the final boss. It sure does discourage the use of fusion, I'd dare say even better than Fusion's lame power in D2 :P

A propos: does Fusion actually damage the final boss when it penetrates and touches its blind spot?

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:10 am 
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I have uploaded a boss testing map series based on the boss room from D1 level 7. You have more supplies than you could possibly need to take care of any of the bosses, and you can observe the changes applied to them, in identical environment. Keep in mind that it is intended to be played with the D1,5.ham and S22 files, or else the changes will not be noticed. Also included a separate .ham file for the Vertigo bosses.

As a matter of fact the bosses seem quite underwhelming. The Red Guard for example, dies after only 5 shakers straight to the back. This can be done on 2 invulnerabilities and 2 cloaks. Oh, and I'm encountering a bug where the bosses' perpetual sound doesn't play until some vaguely apparent flag is triggered. It also affects the behavior of some of them, the D1 ones don't teleport half as often as they should and they don't spawn robots when attacked. When they go into the "noisy mode" everything returns.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:06 pm 
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My D2X-XL has a similar bug (probably due to over-exposure to Rebirth) where a boss only ever plays it's attack sound (based on original D2 attack sound criteria) until it teleports. Then it plays its sounds as normal.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:55 am 
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Honestly I would have to say D2 final boss is tougher seeing as earth shakers disorient you and even if you are invulnerable it burns time either getting away when a power up is wearing off and when you are trying to aim. Sure D1 megas did more damage but I think the fact that they scaled them back in D2 proves atleast in the mind of the development team that Alien 2 Boss was supposed to be harder. While I personally believe the Red guard is the most deadly he also was such a let down on how quickly he dies. But these are all only my subjective beliefs.


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:33 pm 
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Sorry If I double post, I tried once and it said complete but now the post isn't here. In an identical environment which boss would pose a bigger threat? I personally believe that the damage of both bosses is nearly equivalent. That being said I believe the alien 2 boss is tough due to a few things. First earthshakers for me are a huge pain to deal with from rumbling disorienting and facing the player in the wrong direction. Also dealing with the shaker fragments even after the players ship makes it around a corner, you still gotta move. As far as defensive part of this fight while the D1 boss 2 has superior health pool I feel like the rear weakness of the alien 2 boss induces the player to use skill or come up with tactics to deal with this not just using a baseball bat on a punching bag. -All views expressed here are my opinions not yours please don't tell me I'm wrong. ☺ -


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:47 am 
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Holthyr wrote:
Sorry If I double post, I tried once and it said complete but now the post isn't here. In an identical environment which boss would pose a bigger threat? I personally believe that the damage of both bosses is nearly equivalent. That being said I believe the alien 2 boss is tough due to a few things. First earthshakers for me are a huge pain to deal with from rumbling disorienting and facing the player in the wrong direction. Also dealing with the shaker fragments even after the players ship makes it around a corner, you still gotta move. As far as defensive part of this fight while the D1 boss 2 has superior health pool I feel like the rear weakness of the alien 2 boss induces the player to use skill or come up with tactics to deal with this not just using a baseball bat on a punching bag. -All views expressed here are my opinions not yours please don't tell me I'm wrong. ☺ -


Well sure, these are some very valid perceptions here. As far as the actual difficulty goes, Parallax have sure cranked it up a notch with this boss. The D1 boss was hard as hell, but you always had enough invulnerabilities and cloaks to just make it in time. With the D2 final boss you can have all the armament and protection you want, but still fail at beating it.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:57 am 
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vision wrote:
When your ability to finish a level is dependent on special items like cloak, invulnerability, and special secondaries you have failed as a game designer. If players have to hoard weapons and save power-ups you are essentially taking freedom away. The level turns into a math problem instead of a cool action game.


I'd like to notice that most of Descent 1 starting with around level 10 was like this. Exceedingly tough robots were brought on very early in the mission, and in huge numbers. But there were always cloaks and invulnerabilities placed either in obvious or ambiguous locations and your acquiring of them made easy the battles otherwise next to impossible.
Descent 1 was all about knowing the secrets and obtaining an advantage - this is something like what you just said, a math problem. Even level 6 is a good example of this. There's a cloak waiting in the lava pit next to the red door. You can pick it up either before entering the blue, the yellow or the red door - you have to ascertain which option is optimal. Same in the red key room - you can either backtrack and pick up the invulnerability, or dash forward and pick up the cloak hidden beyond the secret door, and save the invulnerability for the reactor room (which is every bit as hard as those of the later levels). It's all about decision making and problem solving, and it's that way throughout most of D1.

D2 played quite differently in that regard, if only for the lack of ubiquitous drillers and red hulks. D1 kept you on your toes all the time, just because you could expect a driller at any time, while in D2 the only particularly unforgiving system was Omega, though Limefrost and Brimspark also had their moments. But there were no death trap locations and overall no complete reliance on invulnerabilities to beat some areas. Vertigo seemed even more timid - it's not unusual to be able to run around with 200/200 on Hotshot right until level 10 or even later - something that never would have been possible in D1.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:28 pm 
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Those are good points Xfing.


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:01 pm 
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That was honestly one thing I really liked about the first game. I'd say the upper-level missiles were designed for brain-teaser situations as well... especially the Smart (aptly named!).

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:40 pm 
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But before you go all ballistic on the game's design and devs, remember these few important details.

1) Games are not the same today as they were then. D1 is 25 YEARS old. The landscape of gaming and game design has changed Radically in that time. Back then, it was considered a strategy to conserve your arsenal to use at key points. This was very common in games like Final Fantasy. Back then bosses were BIG..REALLY BIG. The idea was that they were beyond the norm or regular munitions so a little thought was needed and help to take it down.

2) Descent was designed by guys that were learning as they went. They were fresh out of college and there wasn't many triple A game design houses back. I dare say "any" compared to today's standards. The level design itself was revolutionary.

3) It wasn't until the time that D3 was being created that "story line" and level flow were becoming an issue. In that short time, games like Descent, Quake, and UT had really pushed the envelope and the industry was on the verge of being just that; an Industry. People were beginning to take vid games as serious money about that time. EA, UBI, and Activision were all coming into their own then.

4) Also too, our computers could barely handle each new iteration of Descent, so not only were we fighting the bots in the mines, we were also fighting against things like frame lag (for those of us who couldn't afford top end gear) and net lag for Multi...which was still a new concept back then too.

Personally, I think it's a bit unfair to retro-crit a game by today's standards. Again, D1 and D2 both used the lives system that were commonplace until D3 came out. Which in a way was kind of a shame. The consequence of failing, sloppy play or lack of caring was taken away. Granted, that earning lives in Descent weren't terribly difficult to gain, but it still put a limit on that aspect of the game. One of the things I really missed in D3 was random powerup respawns. That was great because you never knew where they were going to be. I think it's just easier these days to build an engine that only handles spawn points as an object rather some floating point. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:43 pm 
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Alter-Fox wrote:
That was honestly one thing I really liked about the first game. I'd say the upper-level missiles were designed for brain-teaser situations as well... especially the Smart (aptly named!).


Yep. Descent 2 on the other hand not only didn't have it, but it seemed like the expanded armament was not necessary. You can run with Gauss starting with level 3 and it'll get you through the entire game basically, while you're never really sure if a situation merits the use of an Earthshaker or you should save it up for later. D2 is much more fluid, with threat distributed evenly and no particular pivots/obstacles to overcome. It could have been so much better if that design philosophy was preserved. All the added weaponry should have been given a chance to shine. D1 had those reactor rooms with 5 red hulks guarding them at a time - a perfect spot to unleash and Earthshaker and not feel it was wasted. D2 sadly lacked such obvious opportunities as far as I can remember.

I'll definitely keep this in mind when considering robot placement in D1,5! Haha. I hope Darkflamewolf agrees.

Duper wrote:
But before you go all ballistic on the game's design and devs, remember these few important details.

1) Games are not the same today as they were then. D1 is 25 YEARS old. The landscape of gaming and game design has changed Radically in that time. Back then, it was considered a strategy to conserve your arsenal to use at key points. This was very common in games like Final Fantasy. Back then bosses were BIG..REALLY BIG. The idea was that they were beyond the norm or regular munitions so a little thought was needed and help to take it down.


And that was one of the good things about 90s and earlier games. The "Nintendo Hard" aspect. The rewarding feeling when you get something right. Right now it's mandatory for developers to ensure that everyone gets it right. Kids today are not at all used to putting effort into beating a game, and it's the very fault of the gaming industry who conditioned them out of it.

Quote:
2) Descent was designed by guys that were learning as they went. They were fresh out of college and there wasn't many triple A game design houses back. I dare say "any" compared to today's standards. The level design itself was revolutionary.


IMO there's no need to try and justify the designers of Descent. The game was hard and its difficulty spikes were haphazard, but that's precisely what most of us like about the game.


Quote:
3) It wasn't until the time that D3 was being created that "story line" and level flow were becoming an issue. In that short time, games like Descent, Quake, and UT had really pushed the envelope and the industry was on the verge of being just that; an Industry. People were beginning to take vid games as serious money about that time. EA, UBI, and Activision were all coming into their own then.


Yeah, EA and Ubisoft. Who doesn't hate these two companies with a passion? Mass-producing mediocre games in an assembly-line style. Zero heart, zero ingenuity, zero replay value - only sales dictated by fashion, peer pressure and underwhelming reception of all titles.

Quote:
Personally, I think it's a bit unfair to retro-crit a game by today's standards. Again, D1 and D2 both used the lives system that were commonplace until D3 came out. Which in a way was kind of a shame. The consequence of failing, sloppy play or lack of caring was taken away. Granted, that earning lives in Descent weren't terribly difficult to gain, but it still put a limit on that aspect of the game. One of the things I really missed in D3 was random powerup respawns. That was great because you never knew where they were going to be. I think it's just easier these days to build an engine that only handles spawn points as an object rather some floating point. ;)


Yeah, the removal of lives from D3 was quite disappointing, there was no feeling of punishment for dying. It was only 1999, yet the industry was already showing some signs of dumbing down their products to fit the tastes of the masses. Sad. Anyway, I don't think we're criticizing D1 or D2 here, we're just analyzing the differences in design in a detached manner, more like.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:16 pm 
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Xfing wrote:
Anyway, I don't think we're criticizing D1 or D2 here, we're just analyzing the differences in design in a detached manner, more like.


**nod**
:)

I loved the Gauss, It worked well in D2 but would have made a mess of D1. I know many would disagree with me as it was a major contention point back in the day; much like the rail gun was. ...which I hate. I've NEVER been good at quick point and cliking. aka sniping. Still not. :P

anywho. I enjoyed D1's bosses more than D2's for various personal reasons. I'm not one who believes that more difficult means more better. Again, most here would disagree with that. When I get to where I have to try 8 times or more to clear an area, I'm not having fun anymore and that's why I play: to have fun. Challenge is necessary otherwise I would just go outside and skip rope all day long, but for me, there is a fine line between challenge and stupid hard. That's where my enjoyment stops but I don't expect all or even most games to hit that. I just go into a game understanding that I may not be able to finish it. In real life, it's a different matter. But these are only games. They aren't truly important.


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:45 pm 
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Only games? Not important?

Well, they may indeed be very important to some people, for escapist reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:16 pm 
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Duper wrote:
... When I get to where I have to try 8 times or more to clear an area, I'm not having fun anymore and that's why I play: to have fun. Challenge is necessary otherwise I would just go outside and skip rope all day long, but for me, there is a fine line between challenge and stupid hard. That's where my enjoyment stops...


I totally agree.
As an example, It really frustrates me to play the game Hard Reset on Normal (and up) difficulty levels because starting on the second map (very early in the game) it ceases to be fun as you have to re-try some sections a few dozens of times (at least in my case) in order to advance further, and it has those damn checkpoints where I have to repeat an entire section again and again. :x

Yeah, I admit I'm not be the best player around there, but even with that I can play Descent 1 on Hotshot and Ace without major issues while still having fun, and can also enjoy all old-school FPS like Quake and Doom even on their higher difficulty levels.
But when playing Hard Reset, I can only play it in Easy difficulty to make it bearable and fun enough.

-

Now, goin' back to Descent.
Even if the difficulty curve is a bit harsh in D1 specially with all those red hulks and drillers in the mercury levels, it's by far much better designed and balanced than D2 and D3, IMVHO, making it much more fun and interesting!

And the same applies with the bosses.
I feel that the fight against the D1 final boss is much more intense and exciting than the one against the D2 Tycho Brahe boss, and that's because room design and placement of stuff (matcens, powerups, etc) plays also a VERY important role.

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