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 Post subject: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:19 pm 
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In identical environment, which boss would pose more danger to the player on Insane? I'm asking because I'm deciding on the bosses' order of appearance in the campaign.

D1 final boss has the most HP of them all, at 10,000 it beats any other boss from both the games. Plus, he fires Player Megas in salvos of 2, thus any single salvo guaranteeing death if it hits. They are hard as hell to dodge too. In D2 he can't spawn any and all D1 bots, but he can be rigged to spawn either Zeta Aquilae or Quartzon robots (or other types too, but that requires giving him an immunity).

D2 final boss has the advantage of only being vulnerable in one spot, which requires either Shakers/Smarts or cloaking devices and rear approach in order to combat him. His HP is markedly lower than the D1 boss' and his Shakers can be avoided, but the impact is often disorienting and the shaker children are good at pursuing you.

In TEW, the boss with only a single vulnerability point was not the ultimate boss, but rather the penultimate one. Therefore I wonder if putting the End Hulk later than the Alien 2 Boss would kill the climax.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:31 pm 
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What would be awesome would be if you could have them both in the same room for the final boss fight, and you would have to destroy them both in order to get the last level to melt down.

I experimented with that once, it didnt work at all from what I remember. But that would be an awesome fight.

And is the D1 boss's megas easier to dodge in D2 like how the Red Hulk's homers are easier to dodge in D2? If so, the D1 boss would be an easier fight I think.

If you really want the fight against the D2 final boss to be hard, I would give the player a lot less invulnerabilities and earthshakers than in level 24 of D2, and instead offer a crap ton of smart missiles and cloaks with a handfull of invuln and earthshakers.


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:57 pm 
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Well yeah, that would be quite the idea. I'll try that out sometime, not sure if in this mission, though. That said, I'd also like to include Vertigo robots and bosses, but for some reason custom Vertigo levels are unplayable to me on Rebirth. I wonder why the heck...

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:19 pm 
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You could always do a workaround like Darkflamewolf did for Bahagad Outbreak and The Lost Levels. Those missions work in standard Descent 2, but the Vertigo robots ended up replacing various D1 and D2 robots there, so that's at least something you could do to mix things up on that level. ;)

As for which boss would be harder, I'm definitely going with the Alien 2 Boss since only a few weapons can affect it normally and even on Ace, you need to stockpile a LOT of Shakers for that to be a relatively easy fight. The D1 final boss might actually be a fair choice for a halfway mark in the mission instead since the Megas aren't much of a threat in D2 given enough dodging room, and it can still go down quickly as long as you've given out a fair bit of the stronger weapons by then.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:56 pm 
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D2 is set up so that destroying one boss robot will destroy them all, so you can't really get a "have to kill both". Except (you guessed it) in XL.


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:27 pm 
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Sirius wrote:
D2 is set up so that destroying one boss robot will destroy them all, so you can't really get a "have to kill both". Except (you guessed it) in XL.


Or remove the boss flag from one of them. It alters its behavior, though.

As for being unable to run Vertigo levels, well... I've already notified both Zico and Diedel about it, maybe something will be done with it. D1 + D2 robots are a huge variety in their own right, but i miss SPIKE.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Xfing wrote:
Sirius wrote:
D2 is set up so that destroying one boss robot will destroy them all, so you can't really get a "have to kill both". Except (you guessed it) in XL.


Or remove the boss flag from one of them. It alters its behavior, though.

As for being unable to run Vertigo levels, well... I've already notified both Zico and Diedel about it, maybe something will be done with it. D1 + D2 robots are a huge variety in their own right, but i miss SPIKE.

I tried that. Still blew up the level.


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:27 pm 
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Well, no problem. Having 2 bosses is unorthodox. Descent 1,5 is going to be like "Doom the way Id Did", but more of an addon. So the levels shouldn't drastically alter the precepts established in both D1 and 2.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:24 am 
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It will be very hard to replicate any of the success of DTWIDD. And any D2 conventions should be ignored in favor of D1 only conventions.


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:58 pm 
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Avder wrote:
It will be very hard to replicate any of the success of DTWIDD. And any D2 conventions should be ignored in favor of D1 only conventions.


Well, the concept is that the mission pack will span both the Solar System, the six systems of D2 and Beta Ceti of Vertigo. There's gonna be no D2 weapons nor accessories until Zeta Aquilae (well, maybe with the exception of some secret level puzzles), and the nerfed weapons will be unnerfed (laser power back to D1, fusion power back to D1, spread power and projectile speed back to D1).

Right now I'm building Level 1, I'm just waiting for Pumo to finish up the random .pig so that the conversion from D1 can be made smoothly. Best to take things slow, I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:04 pm 
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Yeah, things are goin' a bit slowly with the .pig file but at a firm and steady pace.
But I'm pretty sure patience will pay us nicely, as the .pig file will be useful for both your project and one of my projects, and maybe for some other level authors out there. :)

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:49 pm 
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Xfing wrote:
Avder wrote:
It will be very hard to replicate any of the success of DTWIDD. And any D2 conventions should be ignored in favor of D1 only conventions.


Well, the concept is that the mission pack will span both the Solar System, the six systems of D2 and Beta Ceti of Vertigo. There's gonna be no D2 weapons nor accessories until Zeta Aquilae (well, maybe with the exception of some secret level puzzles), and the nerfed weapons will be unnerfed (laser power back to D1, fusion power back to D1, spread power and projectile speed back to D1).

Right now I'm building Level 1, I'm just waiting for Pumo to finish up the random .pig so that the conversion from D1 can be made smoothly. Best to take things slow, I guess.


Is this going to be playable in Rebirth?


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:57 am 
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Is there going to be new stuff added?


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:14 am 
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Avder wrote:
Is this going to be playable in Rebirth?


Most certainly, I envision this being 100% vanilla oriented.

DarkFlameWolf wrote:
Is there going to be new stuff added?


Well, this time I'd rather that there's no new stuff, only the normally available things. I know the D1+D2+Vertigo approach has already been taken in The Lost Levels, but I daresay this project will still feel different, as the architecture and gameplay will closely emulate 1st Strike and Counterstrike (and Vertigo in latest levels). Also, I plan to incorporate matching D1-exclusive textures into D2 themes (though not to go as far as theme mixing like Vertigo, except for the Beta Ceti levels obviously), so the levels will look more fresh. The level I recently uploaded to DMB is one example of that.

I'm having problems including Vertigo stuff, though, as my Rebirth crashes and exits with no error message when I try to run a custom Vertigo level in it (the actual vertigo mission runs just fine). I have no idea whether the bug is on the side of Rebirth or DLE, I have mailed both Diedel and Zico so maybe they'll see if they can find the cause of that.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:51 pm 
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It looks like older Vertigo levels that still run have a .HAM file with the same name as the mission, to allow for the Vertigo add-on robots and weapons. I don't know if that's enough to fix the problem, but you could try to see if it works.


Otherwise, my backup suggestion is the same as before. Replacing some D1 and D2 robots with the Vertigo bots in .HXM files will at least let you use the robots.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:56 pm 
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NaphthaTurisas wrote:
It looks like older Vertigo levels that still run have a .HAM file with the same name as the mission, to allow for the Vertigo add-on robots and weapons. I don't know if that's enough to fix the problem, but you could try to see if it works.


Otherwise, my backup suggestion is the same as before. Replacing some D1 and D2 robots with the Vertigo bots in .HXM files will at least let you use the robots.


I'll be damned, this actually did work! Ha! Looks like everything's gonna be fine and dandy after all.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:10 pm 
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Glad I could help. :D

Oddly enough, something different happens on older levels that were made for Vertigo but lacked that special .HAM. I actually have a copy of one of Darkflamewolf's oldest levels, Deep Kragg Gorge, which was supposed to include lots of Logi-Kills, Class 3 Heavy Drillers and other Vertigo bots. They still show up as that in the editor, but when you open Rebirth or XL and play the game, various Descent 1 robots replace the Vertigo bots to make the mission playable in standard Descent 2. I don't think we would've ever figured this out if it hadn't been for the 31 Logi-Kills placed in the level becoming 31 Supervisor Droids. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:11 pm 
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So you just copy the vertigo ham, rename it to your mission name and put it in your hog file?
That sounds... so simple and intuitive, I'm amazed we didn't think of it when we were trying to make this work a year (?) ago.
These things are never simple and intuitive. That must have been what slipped us up! :P

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:22 am 
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Alter-Fox wrote:
So you just copy the vertigo ham, rename it to your mission name and put it in your hog file?
That sounds... so simple and intuitive, I'm amazed we didn't think of it when we were trying to make this work a year (?) ago.
These things are never simple and intuitive. That must have been what slipped us up! :P


Actually I'm not sure whether putting the .ham in the .hog actually works. I have only tried to simply copy d2x.ham and name it as the mission is named and put it in Descent 2's main directory. Well, that at least allows for a single .ham file for the entire mission pack, but is inconvenient when it comes to testing the levels...

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:03 am 
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Ok, let's get back to topic at hand. What boss order do you propose to have in the mission?

The lore-wise explanation will be the virus replicating pre-fabricated designs and making enhancements to some of them (D1 boss 1 and 2 need to spawn D2 robots on hit in order for their AI to work properly)

Let's forgo the aesthetic considerations, the only thing that matters is the actual threat the boss poses. So, my proposal is:

1. Red Fatty - Obviously the easiest one.
2. Quartzon Boss - His Mercuries can be nasty on Ace+
3. Baloris Prime Boss - He isn't really much more dangerous than the previous one, will be a challenge because of lack of Helix
4. Vertigo Boss 1 - Omega Cannon is nasty, and he also has those Smarts to keep you on your toes.
5. Brimspark Boss - Robot Megas and Phoenix + energy immunity makes him nasty.
6. Descent 1 Boss 1 - Not only he's very tough on Insane (takes forever to kill), but in D2 with AI tweaks he spams those Smarts like there's no tomorrow.
7. Limefrost Spiral Boss - Death In Blindness.
8. Tycho Brahe Boss - We all know he's hard.
9. Vertigo Boss 2 - Same as above but adds homing Robot Megas to mix things up.
10. Descent 1 Boss 2 - The greatest HP of them all and Player Mega Missiles with 180+ Damage, 'nuff said.

I opted for having the D1 Final Boss as the last one simply because it is scary, all-around mighty and the hardest of them all to take down. If you have a better idea on the boss order, feel free to post it and we'll discuss ^^

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:27 am 
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I still think the Alien 2 Boss would be a better finisher, but now taking into account that the Vertigo bosses will also be used, the Red Guard just seems like the best choice possible to finish out on. After all, it has both the signature weapons of the D1 Final Boss and the Alien 2 Boss, plus the Alien 2 Boss's immunities. It's simply the absolute hardest any of the three missions has to offer, in my opinion.

Of the remaining final bosses, putting the D1 Final Boss in Level 40 and the Alien 2 Boss in Level 45 seems like a logical progression from easiest to hardest, but it might make more sense to put in a breather so that you have more time to gather up another trove of Smart and Shaker Missiles. So if those last five levels don't contain enough Shakers, maybe move the Alien 2 Boss up to Level 40 and put something else like the Ice Boss on Level 45.

I'd also put D1 Boss 1 much earlier personally. No later than Level 20, IMO, unless it really did get that much more dangerous with Descent 2's AI. But I thought I heard the D1 Final Boss can no longer spawn new robots into its lair on its own, so that takes out a bit of the danger around that boss and I'd expect D1 Boss 1 to also take a bit of a hit (not to mention the weapons you really shouldn't still be holding out on by Level 30 will take out some of the challenge :P).

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:24 am 
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That is a thing, shakers are going to make D1's final boss so much easier. And if it's the final boss of the mission you'll have shakers, and you won't have any reason not to use them.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:44 am 
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I agree about the D1 final boss, he can be face-shakered and go down quite fast. Still, I think it would take around 7 Shakers to finish the job. I'll test it right now. My reasoning behind the D1 Boss being last is his highest HP and highest damage. Without invulnerabilities, that guy's untouchable and we all know that. The boss room could be made frustratingly hard by giving the player like 1 invuln to use and locking the door from the inside, like in D1 lvl 7. The architecture and powerup counts can also work to our advantage in creating difficulty.

One more thing: the D1 Final Boss will use Player Megas while Brimspark and the Red Guard only use Robot Megas. Player Megas always do like 180 damage, while the Robot Megas' damage is strictly dependent on difficulty, but even on Insane they don't do more than 100 damage in one hit from what I remember.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:59 am 
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I agree that even as something simple as changing the boss room layout can make things challenging. For example, Descent Vignettes level 25, it was a claustrophobic room with really nothing between you and the boss but some pillars and a few feet of empty space. It was a death trap, but you had to make use of everything available to you to survive D1 Final boss.


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:30 pm 
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Compared to The Outer Reaches, which ended on one of the biggest arenas possible for the same boss... :P

Even if the D1 Final Boss can take about seven Shaker Missiles on Insane, keep in mind a worse shot will probably need a lot more than that to deal with the Alien 2 Boss or Red Guard on Ace. I can't seem to defeat either one on Ace without close to ten, because so many of the bomblets hit the invulnerable areas. Players with worse aim are sure to waste more there, or run out of Phoenix or Smart weapons faster where it's possible to just Gauss, Helix and Mega away on the D1 Final Boss.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:58 pm 
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Alright, I think I'll heed more experienced people then. Just make sure that when making proposals, every next boss is more difficult than the previous one. This might be tricky as hell to judge, though.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:35 am 
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But other than that I'm satisfied with the boss order. So what do you say we simply swap the D1 Final Boss and the Red Guard? That'll make the final challenge greater. And we'll need to make sure that the final level's boss arena is smaller and provides less cover than the one from Vertigo. The final Vertigo fight was actually easier than the Tycho Brahe fight, in my opinion.

Check out the levels that will have bosses http://www.dateiliste.com/en/forum/21-descent-1-12/181-the-level-listing.html

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:12 am 
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I think it's a fair change, considering it also gives the player a bit of a breather between the Alien 2 Boss and the Red Guard. The Red Guard just deserves to be the final boss, IMO (and I definitely had a harder time with it than the Alien 2 Boss normally), but I also think it's better to give the player a little more time to start picking up more Shakers and Smarts again after coming off of the Alien 2 Boss, so using the D1 Final Boss as an in-between works.

Otherwise, gathering Shakers could easily become meaningless if you have to put two dozen or so in the last five levels just to keep things from being too impossible. :P

EDIT: Also, as I mentioned in another thread, I'm pretty sure the D1 Final Boss has 7000 HP by default, not 10000. Not sure if that deflates your image of it as a good endgame boss, but there you have it.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:57 pm 
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NaphthaTurisas wrote:
I think it's a fair change, considering it also gives the player a bit of a breather between the Alien 2 Boss and the Red Guard. The Red Guard just deserves to be the final boss, IMO (and I definitely had a harder time with it than the Alien 2 Boss normally), but I also think it's better to give the player a little more time to start picking up more Shakers and Smarts again after coming off of the Alien 2 Boss, so using the D1 Final Boss as an in-between works.

Otherwise, gathering Shakers could easily become meaningless if you have to put two dozen or so in the last five levels just to keep things from being too impossible. :P

EDIT: Also, as I mentioned in another thread, I'm pretty sure the D1 Final Boss has 7000 HP by default, not 10000. Not sure if that deflates your image of it as a good endgame boss, but there you have it.


Yeah, true. He's got 7k HP, that was just a blunder on my part. Still, even though he'll be placed between the Alien 2 Boss and the Red Guard, I wouldn't really consider it a "breather" :D

Another thing: What do you guys think about altering the bots' HP and other properties for them to be more in line with the difficulty? I know that's not making things "canon", but on the other hand the transition of the D1 bosses to D2 also requires us to give them properties they didn't have in order for the rest of their AI to remain intact. And so the D1 boss 1 and 2 will probably be stuck spawning Zeta Aquilae robots. This of course can be remedied by adding matcens in the boss room, so no biggie. The robots they spawn could also be altered by assigning them the routine of another D2 boss, but that would also give them a certain immunity along with it. If the D1 final boss was made immune to particle weapons, rendering Megas and Shakers useless, he'd no doubt be the most challenging of them all.

Other than that, altering the HP of the bosses, unanimously increasing it for every subsequent boss, could prove quite a fun way to mix things up. It would also be easily explainable lore-wise, as the alien virus is said to constantly improve upon its previous designs and AI behaviors.

I still haven't decided on this one. Luckily, no matter what way we do it will be fine, as I'm quite happy with the boss order the way it is. But this could prove quite a fun way to make them even more challenging than before, than ever.

So my proposals are: either we leave them bots alone and don't mess with'em (except the D1 ones for them to have the right AI), or:

1) The Red Fatty's HP gets amped up from 2750 to 3750.
2) Quartzon Boss' HP goes up from 3250 to 4250.
3) Baloris Prime Boss remains the same, at 4750. Immune to Kinetic weapons, default stuff. Player Mercuries for armament would probably be overkill, so let's not change that.
4) Vertigo Boss 1 gets 5250. Player Smarts and Robot Omega - no changes here.
5) Brimspark Boss gets 5750. The rest remains the same.
6) D1 Boss gets 6250 + immunity to Energy Weapons + Robot Smart Missiles (which are actually more damaging on Insane and faster moving on Ace and Insane than Player Smart Missiles, to make him better with those than the Vertigo 1 Boss)
7) Ice Boss gets 6750. Immunity to Energy swapped for immunity to Kinetic in order to confuse people.
8 ) Tycho Brache Boss would have 7250 hp. Robot Earthshakers as originally.
9) D1 Boss 2 gets 8000 + immunity to Kinetic Weapons. That means no face-shakering. Player Megas already assumed as default armament.
10) Red Guard gets 8500 + Player Megas + Player Earthshakers. Now THAT's an ultimate challenge.

The two last bosses would be sooo hard that way, that they could easily be swapped, I think. The appearance of the D1 final boss is the most intimidating of them all, the sounds he makes notwithstanding. Such a fight would make for an unforgettable experience. The Red Guard, rigged the way I proposed, would definitely pack the biggest punch of all the bosses ever, but he could be shakered in the rear - while you'd have to rely exclusively on Helix or Quads to fight the D1 Final Boss. Both these combinations are so overpowered in my opinion that they'll challenge the best of the best anyway. But the Red Guard perhaps should be the last indeed as he wins out in firepower quite considerably.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:11 am 
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I think the original HP amounts are better estimates personally. 5000 HP or above is still enough that those last few bosses can still be very time-consuming even with the best weapons in the game. I'd be happy to test things to see if it needs to be tweaked, but with the scaling, 5000 HP is still a lot on Ace or higher and you may need to take into consideration how much resources a player needs to take down those bosses if the HP is raised. That's actually why I'm slightly lowering the boss shields in my own mission, so players are less likely to get completely stuck.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:32 am 
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Oh, you're probably right about that one. I remember the D1 boss always taking forever to kill, even though he's "only" 3k ahead of the first boss. Yet the length of taking them down seems to be worlds apart.

Well, how about just the resistance and armament changes, then?

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:53 pm 
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I'm playing the Apocalyptic Factor campaign at the moment. The boss from Level 5 was so hard I had to check his HP, it's 6500 actually. And had Player Mercuries and Player Megas, while there was only 1 invulnerability in terms of powerups, and severely limited Gauss ammunition (the boss is immune to energy). I absolutely loved the challenge and savored every bit of it, the boss was insane. I actually think that increasing the bosses' HP is a good idea, as I feel everything done to make this boss more nightmarish was completely spot on. And I was only playing on Hotshot, mind you, but the whole mission is delightfully difficult.

So let's make those bosses momentous, shall we not? What difference does it make if you lose 7 lives instead of 1-2? It'll make you feel like you worked to get to the next level! At least that's the kind of satisfaction I felt when I got to level 6 of TAF.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:55 am 
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Wait until you see the level 12 boss. You will be hating that one. He is just all kinds of unfair.


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:43 pm 
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DarkFlameWolf wrote:
Wait until you see the level 12 boss. You will be hating that one. He is just all kinds of unfair.


Level 9 right now. Sirius has warned me as well, I hope there's at least some ordnance to bring that fella down :(

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:28 am 
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Just keep in mind AF was a more coop-oriented mission, though (although if that's the case, then why the massive briefing you would only get to read in single player? Not that I didn't like the story, but...). I know you want D1.5 to be a challenge and I don't blame you for that, but did you want it to truly be too much for one player to handle or just a very welcome challenge that a skilled player could handle solo? That's the distinction you have to keep in mind here.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:15 am 
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NaphthaTurisas wrote:
Just keep in mind AF was a more coop-oriented mission, though (although if that's the case, then why the massive briefing you would only get to read in single player? Not that I didn't like the story, but...). I know you want D1.5 to be a challenge and I don't blame you for that, but did you want it to truly be too much for one player to handle or just a very welcome challenge that a skilled player could handle solo? That's the distinction you have to keep in mind here.


Being as hard as D1 at its hardest would be enough I suppose. The levels will in all likelihood not be as big as they were in AF, so the robot counts won't be able to reach high quotas either. However, the difficulty of AF (on Hotshot) at least is pure enjoyment for me, so I'd like the difficulty of later levels to come close. Besides, D1 and D2 robots used together will create configurations that could potentially be more challenging than anything in D1 and D2.

However, it didn't occur to me that AF was meant to be done coop style. It makes sense though, now that you mentioned it :P

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:18 pm 
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If my boss order proposal is not too late, this is my opinion (with a few weapon swaps):

1. Zeta Aquilae

2. Quartzon

3. D1L7

4. Brimspark

5. Tycho Brahe (Change weapons to Baloris Prime)

6. Vertigo Level 7

7. D2 Final (matter immunity)

8. Limefrost Spiral (Change weapons to Tycho Brahe)

9. Guardian (Change weapons to Limefrost Spiral)

10. Baloris Prime (Change Weapons to Guardian)

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:38 pm 
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LightWolf wrote:
If my boss order proposal is not too late, this is my opinion (with a few weapon swaps):

1. Zeta Aquilae

2. Quartzon

3. D1L7

4. Brimspark

5. Tycho Brahe (Change weapons to Baloris Prime)

6. Vertigo Level 7

7. D2 Final (matter immunity)

8. Limefrost Spiral (Change weapons to Tycho Brahe)

9. Guardian (Change weapons to Limefrost Spiral)

10. Baloris Prime (Change Weapons to Guardian)


Well, it's not really like appearances matter that much. Difficulty is what matters most. But incidentally, most of the difficulty can be achieved by making minor tweaks to the robots' weaponry rather than complete overhauls/swaps. For example, the Red Guard uses Eobot Earthshakers and Robot Megas. Both of these weapons are much more lethal in their Player versions, so doing as much as replacing Robot with Player would already yield very satisfactory results.

The only exception seem to be Smart Missiles. These are actually better in the Robot version, albeit only on higher difficulties. They travel faster on Ace upwards, and their impact does slightly more damage. However, the children are where the difference shows clearly- Player Smarts have Robot Smarts drastically beat on that account.

Player Megas and Shakers, on the other hand, clearly and soundly beat their Robot equivalents in every respect. So swap the Red Guard's weaponry and you've got a nigh-unbeatable final boss already. Jack up his HP by 3000 and you're certain that the boss battle will be remembered. Most likely remembered in cursing breath, but remembered all the same :mrgreen:

Still, in my opinion the only bosses out of the ten that look and sound even remotely intimidating are the D1 bosses, especially the second one. Parallax probably tried hard to come up with memorable bosses for D2, but damn. Remember that constant noise the D1 bosses make? Remember their appearances. I mean damn, have you ever seen anything remotely as evil looking as the final boss of D1? Those four launchers, those spikes, that eye. That periodic color-swapping. The thing looks just so damn awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:46 pm 
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Xfing wrote:
LightWolf wrote:
If my boss order proposal is not too late, this is my opinion (with a few weapon swaps):

1. Zeta Aquilae

2. Quartzon

3. D1L7

4. Brimspark

5. Tycho Brahe (Change weapons to Baloris Prime)

6. Vertigo Level 7

7. D2 Final (matter immunity)

8. Limefrost Spiral (Change weapons to Tycho Brahe)

9. Guardian (Change weapons to Limefrost Spiral)

10. Baloris Prime (Change Weapons to Guardian)


Well, it's not really like appearances matter that much. Difficulty is what matters most. But incidentally, most of the difficulty can be achieved by making minor tweaks to the robots' weaponry rather than complete overhauls/swaps. For example, the Red Guard uses Eobot Earthshakers and Robot Megas. Both of these weapons are much more lethal in their Player versions, so doing as much as replacing Robot with Player would already yield very satisfactory results.

The only exception seem to be Smart Missiles. These are actually better in the Robot version, albeit only on higher difficulties. They travel faster on Ace upwards, and their impact does slightly more damage. However, the children are where the difference shows clearly- Player Smarts have Robot Smarts drastically beat on that account.

Player Megas and Shakers, on the other hand, clearly and soundly beat their Robot equivalents in every respect. So swap the Red Guard's weaponry and you've got a nigh-unbeatable final boss already. Jack up his HP by 3000 and you're certain that the boss battle will be remembered. Most likely remembered in cursing breath, but remembered all the same :mrgreen:

Still, in my opinion the only bosses out of the ten that look and sound even remotely intimidating are the D1 bosses, especially the second one. Parallax probably tried hard to come up with memorable bosses for D2, but damn. Remember that constant noise the D1 bosses make? Remember their appearances. I mean damn, have you ever seen anything remotely as evil looking as the final boss of D1? Those four launchers, those spikes, that eye. That periodic color-swapping. The thing looks just so damn awesome.


D2 Ice Boss. Most menacing boss I have ever seen in the fact that you will not ever see it unless you snipe it from the exit hallway.

As far as pure aesthetics go, well I guess the D1 final boss would be the king of that hill.


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 Post subject: Re: D1 final boss vs D2 final boss.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:58 pm 
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Well... I do have a new change to the boss lineup.

1. Zeta Aquilae
2. Quartzon
3. D1L7
4. Brimspark
5. Tycho Brahe (Change weapons to Baloris Prime)
6. Vertigo Level 7
7. D2 Final (Matter immunity)
8. Limefrost Spiral (Change weapons to Tycho Brahe)
9. Baloris Prime (Change weapons to Limefrost Spiral)
10. Death Hulk (New Boss, Robot Fusion, Robot Mega, Matter immunity)
11. Guardian (Upgrade weapons to Player version)

EDIT:
The Death Hulk will have to have Player fusion, as I can't seem to find Robot Fusion in RBoTEdit's list of weapons.

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