Return of the King
I'm not really talking about two men having a non-sexual loving relationships. Like the budweiser commericals, I have said I love you to men before. It was non-sexual.
However, the relationship between pippin and mary to me almost seemed like the viewer was to *infer* a sexual relationship between them. I dunno, that's just what both me and whom I saw the movie with felt.
I think the problem was likely less to do with Tolkien's story and more to do with the way Jackson portrayed it.
However, the relationship between pippin and mary to me almost seemed like the viewer was to *infer* a sexual relationship between them. I dunno, that's just what both me and whom I saw the movie with felt.
I think the problem was likely less to do with Tolkien's story and more to do with the way Jackson portrayed it.
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Vertigo 99
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Phoenix Red
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Ok, I want to clear up a few things.
First, and probably most importantly, yes the movies should stand alone, but they should also pay homage to the greatness from which they have come. So to Suncho, Birds and the thousands of other i-didn-t-read-the-books-but-I-thought-this-should-have-happened sayers, no, it shouldn't have, because it didin't happen in the book. If you want the reason it didn't happen explained, read the book, or watch the movie more carefully. Couldn't be more simple.
Second, the cultures of the world were made to fit the geography. Since the "good guys" are PHYSICALLY north and west of the bad guys, the people that live there assumed traits that are to be found south and east of England (if it happened that way in this world, it stands to reason another such world would have similar results, no? Culture is a result of survival-driven tradition, survival techniques are dependant on geography). The "good guys" are white because, and this is explained by Tolkien in the companion volume (silmilarion?), the races of Middle Earth are a metaphor for the people of England. Black men come from the south because the sun is rougher down there, and sauron's armies come from the south because all the men in the north don't like him very much since he tried to enslave them all once.
Third, I don't like what htey did with the shire either, and I'm of two minds about aragon's pack of ghosties. However, we can't all agree, and I liked what Peter Jackson did with most of it. I didn't even mind him filching freely from other fantasy series' to create atmosphere (for example, anyone read Sword of Truth? look at sleeping gandalf, the eyes open bit is, IIRC, not mentioned in LotR ever).
Four. Giant elephants are cool.
Five. It made perfect sense to me, since I can almost recite the books, but now I think on it, the seeing-stones, one's presence at orthanc, and their relationship with what happens to Frodo at the top of the mountain in the end of Fellowship should have been explained. They can look across distance or time. The one at Orthanc (Isengaurd, Sauruman's tower) had been used by Sauruman to talk to Sauron for the last few months, which is why the Eye was the first thing to appear in it to Pippen. This is also how he sees the future (the attack on gondor). As stated by Lothar, Aragorn can use it properly. Sauron has one. One used to be at the little patio at the top of the mountain at the end of Fellowship, and by looking from there you can still see farther then normal due to it being there so long. That's how the Eye finds Frodo, Frodo looks (innocently) in that direction, zooms in on Sauron, and is noticed.
Six. I am boggled as to how ten minutes of silent hugging at the end actually made it to the release. I mean, talk about the Three, we know they're sad. Having the point driven home with a sledgehammer was pretty annoying. Galadriel, Gandalf, and Elrond have the three elven rings. Only ringbearers get to go on the last ship. Since Sam held the One for a short time while Frodo was caught, he gets to go too. Whether he chose to stay in the shire, or whether they're coming back for him, is unclear, at least to me.
Seven. When they get back to the Shire, Sauruman is there, and has caused a lot of mischief. Places are dug up, the economy is in shambles, lots of anger and fear. The four hobbits run him out, kill Wormtongue (his little friend that bewitched the king of Rohan), and get everything back on track. Sam's gift of fertile soil is spread across the lands and all is well. Some of the silver-leafed trees (they bring peace) are planted, their seeds came in the Lotharien soil. Too depressing an ending for the movie I guess, as was teh infamous aragorn suicide and dying alone-ness of Arwen.
That should be about it.
I should also note that Aragorn washed his hair for the crowning ceremony. Yay.
First, and probably most importantly, yes the movies should stand alone, but they should also pay homage to the greatness from which they have come. So to Suncho, Birds and the thousands of other i-didn-t-read-the-books-but-I-thought-this-should-have-happened sayers, no, it shouldn't have, because it didin't happen in the book. If you want the reason it didn't happen explained, read the book, or watch the movie more carefully. Couldn't be more simple.
Second, the cultures of the world were made to fit the geography. Since the "good guys" are PHYSICALLY north and west of the bad guys, the people that live there assumed traits that are to be found south and east of England (if it happened that way in this world, it stands to reason another such world would have similar results, no? Culture is a result of survival-driven tradition, survival techniques are dependant on geography). The "good guys" are white because, and this is explained by Tolkien in the companion volume (silmilarion?), the races of Middle Earth are a metaphor for the people of England. Black men come from the south because the sun is rougher down there, and sauron's armies come from the south because all the men in the north don't like him very much since he tried to enslave them all once.
Third, I don't like what htey did with the shire either, and I'm of two minds about aragon's pack of ghosties. However, we can't all agree, and I liked what Peter Jackson did with most of it. I didn't even mind him filching freely from other fantasy series' to create atmosphere (for example, anyone read Sword of Truth? look at sleeping gandalf, the eyes open bit is, IIRC, not mentioned in LotR ever).
Four. Giant elephants are cool.
Five. It made perfect sense to me, since I can almost recite the books, but now I think on it, the seeing-stones, one's presence at orthanc, and their relationship with what happens to Frodo at the top of the mountain in the end of Fellowship should have been explained. They can look across distance or time. The one at Orthanc (Isengaurd, Sauruman's tower) had been used by Sauruman to talk to Sauron for the last few months, which is why the Eye was the first thing to appear in it to Pippen. This is also how he sees the future (the attack on gondor). As stated by Lothar, Aragorn can use it properly. Sauron has one. One used to be at the little patio at the top of the mountain at the end of Fellowship, and by looking from there you can still see farther then normal due to it being there so long. That's how the Eye finds Frodo, Frodo looks (innocently) in that direction, zooms in on Sauron, and is noticed.
Six. I am boggled as to how ten minutes of silent hugging at the end actually made it to the release. I mean, talk about the Three, we know they're sad. Having the point driven home with a sledgehammer was pretty annoying. Galadriel, Gandalf, and Elrond have the three elven rings. Only ringbearers get to go on the last ship. Since Sam held the One for a short time while Frodo was caught, he gets to go too. Whether he chose to stay in the shire, or whether they're coming back for him, is unclear, at least to me.
Seven. When they get back to the Shire, Sauruman is there, and has caused a lot of mischief. Places are dug up, the economy is in shambles, lots of anger and fear. The four hobbits run him out, kill Wormtongue (his little friend that bewitched the king of Rohan), and get everything back on track. Sam's gift of fertile soil is spread across the lands and all is well. Some of the silver-leafed trees (they bring peace) are planted, their seeds came in the Lotharien soil. Too depressing an ending for the movie I guess, as was teh infamous aragorn suicide and dying alone-ness of Arwen.
That should be about it.
I should also note that Aragorn washed his hair for the crowning ceremony. Yay.
I didn't even mind him filching freely from other fantasy series' to create atmosphere (for example, anyone read Sword of Truth? look at sleeping gandalf, the eyes open bit is, IIRC, not mentioned in LotR ever).
I disagree. If memory serves, there was a passage where Gandalf sleeps and someone explains how when wizards sleep their eyes remain open.
Also in the book, the white tree of Gondor does not come back to life, rather Aaragorn finds a sapling in the mountains and takes it back to Gondor to plant it.
So you see Birdy, by not reading the book you miss out on a whole bunch of story line.
As to the gayness issue...just what in gods name did Merry & Pippin or Sam and Frodo do that was even remotely gay? I think some here have been hanging around San Fransisco too long.
I disagree. If memory serves, there was a passage where Gandalf sleeps and someone explains how when wizards sleep their eyes remain open.
Also in the book, the white tree of Gondor does not come back to life, rather Aaragorn finds a sapling in the mountains and takes it back to Gondor to plant it.
So you see Birdy, by not reading the book you miss out on a whole bunch of story line.
As to the gayness issue...just what in gods name did Merry & Pippin or Sam and Frodo do that was even remotely gay? I think some here have been hanging around San Fransisco too long.
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Lothar
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just to clear something up, none of the four hobbit heroes killed either Wormtongue or Saruman. Wormtongue killed Saruman ("Sharky" IIRC) by stabbing him in the back, and then the pack of Hobbits escorting our four killed Wormtongue by shooting him with arrows as he tried to flee. It was a fitting end...
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Phoenix Red
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Sorry to put this here,
but since Birdseye's e-mail is apparently not working at all, im inviting you to talk here.
but since Birdseye's e-mail is apparently not working at all, im inviting you to talk here.
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Jesus Freak
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Suncho: "especially since Sam and Frodo had that conversation about there being no return journey. I thought for sure they would fall in with the ring and I was disappointed that they didn't."
Dude, u want the good guys to DIE???!!! What's wrong with u!
As for my opinion, the movie rocked, although I admit I had to pee in the last hour of the movie, but couldn't cause I didn't want to miss anything, but anyhow it affected my opinion of the long ending
However I admit I did want to see the hobbits kick some Sauruman and Grimer Wormtongue butt at the end. 
The army of the dead scene that wiped out all the enemies sucked. I mean, I wanted to see some more ownage, not watch 100,000 orcs drop over dead. What's the fun in that? They should have had more battle scenes, and it would have been nice if the army of the dead could be killed... they could have shown some kool lookin scenes.
The Return of the King strayed the most from the book of all the movies. Everyone before me has pointed the areas out, and there are many more minor cases that were either left out or changed. For instance, when Frodo, Sam, and Gollum are about to ascend the huge staircase on the way to TEH TUNNEL, Frodo gets distracted and is almost caught. According to my memory from reading the books 4 years ago, that never happened. Wasn't a bad scene, but it didn't happen They should have added some of the scenes that were taken out and removed some of the scenes that were added into the movie. Of course, the movie director prolly knows a lot more about movie making than I do, so I'll shaddap now
Dude, u want the good guys to DIE???!!! What's wrong with u!
As for my opinion, the movie rocked, although I admit I had to pee in the last hour of the movie, but couldn't cause I didn't want to miss anything, but anyhow it affected my opinion of the long ending
However I admit I did want to see the hobbits kick some Sauruman and Grimer Wormtongue butt at the end. The army of the dead scene that wiped out all the enemies sucked. I mean, I wanted to see some more ownage, not watch 100,000 orcs drop over dead. What's the fun in that? They should have had more battle scenes, and it would have been nice if the army of the dead could be killed... they could have shown some kool lookin scenes.
The Return of the King strayed the most from the book of all the movies. Everyone before me has pointed the areas out, and there are many more minor cases that were either left out or changed. For instance, when Frodo, Sam, and Gollum are about to ascend the huge staircase on the way to TEH TUNNEL, Frodo gets distracted and is almost caught. According to my memory from reading the books 4 years ago, that never happened. Wasn't a bad scene, but it didn't happen
They should have added some of the scenes that were taken out and removed some of the scenes that were added into the movie. Of course, the movie director prolly knows a lot more about movie making than I do, so I'll shaddap now