RE: Faces in Max Continued-video is here!!!

For Descent, Descent II and Descent3 level editing and modification assistance.
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RE: Faces in Max Continued-video is here!!!

Post by jshaner » Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:15 pm

My video on the problem i am having is finally here. It is only 13.xx megabytes, shouldn't take too long to download and watch.

EDIT: Link Removed

I would appreciate some feedback on what i am doing wrong, it would really help!

-please don't name the game, refer to it as xxx.
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Post by MetalBeast » Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:14 pm

I didn't know this game engine details, but what I can understand from this video, this engine need closed, one piece meshes.

It means there can't be any crossed faces/meshes/objects in the model.

If you take the homing-missile, you can see that I build the small stearing-wings as triangle-shaped meshes, which are pushed into the missile rocket.

It is not clean mesh modeling, but it is the deal you have to make with low-poly modeling. It saves vertices and faces.

And the most game-engines haven't any problems with it.

I think such technique is not allowed with this engine.

You need meshes, which look like \"inflatable equipment\", it means, all objects in the model must be made this way, so you can close them to one single mesh. All triangles must build one surface.

I hope you can understand what I mean, I know my english is not very good.

In other words, if you take simple box, it works.
If you take 2 boxes and put them a litte bit one in the another, this will not work, cause there are crossed faces. This engine need clean mesh edges.

I hope it helps you.

P.S. You know you have no permission to use this pyro model for any projects, except personally use.

MB.
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Post by jshaner » Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:57 pm

-I am sorry for using your model MB, i have no intentions of releasing this anywhere but my own pc, i was just using it as an example. I could have done it with some other pyro or thing, but this was the most accessable at the time.

-It is indeed that the game engine has a sealed' world policy', and it does not allow open faces or things like that. Is there no way to easily correct a model for this use? If not, i will have to find a different game engine to use, one that is less knit picky.

-I just need to know a way to correct any kind of model for my personal uses. Again, i am sorry, but i was just using your model as an example.~You said that the meshes cannot collide into one another, and even in my own models, there have been problems like that, mainly the ones i have hand made.
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Post by MetalBeast » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:13 am

Hi,

It's Ok ;) , I just wanted to notice this, because I'm not giving any permission yet. The reason is, that this model is still beta, we are still working on it and improving it. If there is final version, we will give permission to people, who ask about this and accept our rules.

Back to topic:

How can you correct the models for using with this engine?

I must say, this question confused me a little, cause it means you are very beginner to modeling, it is correct?

So you have to remove all crossing faces/edges/obects and replace them with corresponding meshparts, which fit the engine rules.

So it is a little bit work, to do it so, because you have to remodel parts of the mesh.
The other problem is, that you must crate new UVW-Maps on remodeled parts. So if you are not very familiar with max modeling, it could be a big problem for you.

There is one easier possibility to fix crossed meshes. But it works not for all shapes and it needs many more manually corrections.

For example if you have two objects in the model, which are crossing each the other, you can try to close both objects so they both have no holes.
Then use boolean union, so max makes one object of this both.

If you have luck, max removes unnececary faces automatically, but in the most cases it doesn't.
So you have to do it manually. It costs many time and there is risk, that you overlook some faces, which are inside the mesh.

So the best solution is to remodel the whole parts with boxmodeling method. Boxmodeling means, you start to make your mesh with one simple object, like box or cylinder and use face-extraction for making the details. You wil find some tutorials over the net, how clean boxmodeling works.

http://www.3dluvr.com/grid/tut3D/tut3d.htm
http://www.oktutorials.com/3d-studio-ma ... eiling-fan
http://www.uberpages.com/tutorials/3d_m ... basics.php


In other case you have to find another engine or somebody, who makes the corrections for you ;)
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Post by BUBBALOU » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:40 am

This is really the wrong forum for this subject

You exported a model without fixing it. When you imported, it was broken down into un-welded 3 sided poly's it was evident when you went into subobject edit mode and you chose quad level edit and highlighted the subobject it was full of holes (missing 3 sided poly's in the red parts)

So when you used your converter to convert over your low poly test subject. What it saw was a big pile of jigsaw puzzle pieces not the finished product

Also I did notice that you had multiple sub objects before you went into edit mode another simple mistake

go into object mode / vertex edit / select all weld in rollout, double check to see if nothing got infused highlight quad edit everything should look good now

continue with all other objects

Then take base body object click edit / attach in rollout / click all parts / now one model unless you need a part to be a child

Then parent to the BOX and export


BTW that's Eagle's Pyro (Obvious poly signature still on the model) anyone can use it you do not need zombiee999's permission to use something that was not his anyways... edited or not. I have Eagle's email if you want to ask him....

Now If you want the original version before it was ever hacked into D3 and hacked back out by WOA, I can get you a copy. Also has original TGA's for the paintjob I believe it is in 3dsMax5 format


Once again this needs to be in the gallery not here

I seem to have a better workout dodging your stupidity than attempting to grasp the weight of your intelligence.
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Post by Diedel » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:55 am

Signature or not, MetalBeast (Zombie999) has ripped the entire model to pieces and basically rebuilt it completely. Eagle's model has been nothing but an outline for MB's creation.

Even if you look at the original oof model of Eagle's pyro you will notice some strange things, like the jagged rearward wing edges which look like an artifact from some downscaling tool.

Finally you are completely off MB's and jshanes topic. MB doesn't refer to any problems with Eagle's or his own Pyro model that would be caused by massive flaws in the model. He makes assumptions about what jshane's engine might be expecting and MB's Pyro does not offer: Closed sub models (afaik MB's Pyro has that) which do not intersect with each other (MB's Pyro has intersecting sub models).

Now please stop making this \"I am the modeling expert and you are the bloody noob\" fuzz.
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Post by BUBBALOU » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:57 am

This needs to be in the gallery

actually every Pyro has them in all models, not an artifact I can spot Eagles sig can you

His pyro is nothing like a standard pyro, So be careful Ferno lays claim to that same model

ImageImageImage
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Post by Diedel » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:03 am

I really don't know what this guy wants. Can anybody explain it to me in a contiguous, complete, meaningful text comprehendible for joe average?

Even if Zombie built his Pyro quite exactly after Eagles it doesn't mean that you can just use this model w/o permission. It's his work after all. All it means is that you can model your own Pyro after his.

jshaner,

have you taken a look at the Ogre or the Irrlicht engine?
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Post by BUBBALOU » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:08 am

I'm so sorry Deidle, unfortunately you do not understand modeling...and have not posted anything to help him... therefore do not reply. KTHXBYE

jshanser solution is in my first post

This needs to be in the gallery

I seem to have a better workout dodging your stupidity than attempting to grasp the weight of your intelligence.
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Post by Diedel » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:10 am

I am so sorry that you do not understand proper English spelling, grammar, punctuation (!) or how to post something coherent and easily understandable and therefore are not capable of telling me anything more \"than I cannot reply to you\".

I have still understood enough of your post to reply, at least regarding permission to use something.

I have also understood the process of using OOF tool in conjunction with the welding tool, and what consequences failure to use the welder has when working with the model in 3DS Max. From my perspective of dealing with 3D model rendering I know enough about such stuff.

Btw, the ASE format allows to use textures on a per face base, so from that perspective it is not quite clear to me why an oof exporter would need to break a (sub) model into separate, disjoint triangles to preserve texturing. Ofc I don't know about Max' internal handling of submodels, faces and textures, so I cannot tell whether Max could handle that. But ASE can.

I just don't understand what you want that \"signature\" stuff. Do you refer to the shape, the silhouette of Eagle's and MB's Pyro? It's both just the Pyro as seen in Descent 2' intro movie. MB's has just a lot of functionality added and some flaws removed (-> rearward wing edges) for D2X-XL.

Dude, I really don't know what you want to achieve with your \"I am right and you are wrong\" attitude here. MB is trying to help, and has done a lot for the Descent 1/2 community (hint: Several thousand D2X-XL users, does that tell you something?)

Anyway, converting from Max to OOF and then back is a big ugly hack one would want to avoid.

Finally, I'd like to have Eagle's original Pyro in 3DS Max format. Please e-mail it to karx11erx {at} hotmail [dot] com, or provide a link.
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Post by BUBBALOU » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:26 am

Ok Deidle you do this all the time......

See those little tiny picture above click on the first one, that is a picture of 3 pyro models from the 5 available online. The one in the middle is the D2 movie base shape

Do you need a reference from the Movie

No where in there is that ASE model, but you may want to look at yours as a reference.... With that I think you can figure out the rest with your own eyes, and you may need to rethink you next post before you reply (flame again)

this needs to be in the gallery


PTMC Gallery
The artists and authors forum - not for Descent only! NOTE: work posted © original author - do not use w/out consent!
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Post by Sirius » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:27 am

Diedel seems to be able to import model formats into a game engine... that demonstrates at least a reasonable level of understanding of models.
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Post by Diedel » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:33 am

I don't know what I am doing all the time, and I don't know what you want to tell me. That MB's Pyro looks like Eagles? Yes, it does! So what? It is still his work. Eagle built his ship after the original and beefed it up visually, and MB built his ship as a replacement for the version of Eagle's model because that version had flaws we didn't want to live with - for example open sub models, and that's an observation from my attempts to make Eagle's oof model cast proper shadows in D2X-XL. To the best of my knowledge MB's pyro does not have open submodels.

Actually I had asked MB to fix Eagle's model, and he got so frustrated with it that he had started to rebuild it - which was the best thing that could have happened, given all the improvements he has made.

I would like to know whether it has been made clear anywhere that OOF tool has to be used together with the welder, or whether that is something only a few experts know and someone not involved with oof tool, like MB, wouldn't even dream of and understand he'd have to ask for it. In other words: Could it have been reasonably expected that he found out about it, or couldn't one probably expect him to even get a clue about it?

I can't read your mind (nor can others), so instead of throwing a few pics and half finished posts full of obscure suggestions at people, why don't you start to explain clearly and precisely what you mean?

What is your plan? To put MB's work down? Tell us we must not use it? Or that we have no right to tell others not to use it? That you think that everybody has a right to model a Pyro after the original one except us (hint: the movie Pyro is more detailled than your \"sigs\")? That Eagle was allowed to model his Pyro after the original, but MB wasn't not allowed to model his after Eagle's? That the original ship design is not protected, but Eagle's is?

Are you trying to be constructive or destructive? Tell us!
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Post by BUBBALOU » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:57 am

I'm so sorry someone edited 5 poly's 4 vertex and deleted 4 parts and claimed it as his own, still eagle's

I seem to have a better workout dodging your stupidity than attempting to grasp the weight of your intelligence.
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Post by Diedel » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:59 am

It has not been edited. It has been rebuilt more or less true to Eagle's ship (the air intakes of MB's ship e.g. have not been modeled - although I would have liked him to do so - maybe I should torment him with that request a little ... :roll: ).

You understand the difference between \"edited\" and \"rebuilt\", don't you?

If you claim you don't I have to assume you are trying to be destructive (which would actually correspond well with the nature of yours you are regularly displaying). Currently you are just making negative claims w/o any real evidence.
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Post by jshaner » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:42 am

Image

=CLICK TO ENLARGE=-no copy infringement intended!

I try to look at things from an anlytical point of view, not a biased one, so try to see things from my point.

I will have to try all of the advice here, as i have some time to do it now.

Once again, i just used the ASE pyro as an exapmle, i didn't mean to cause controversy, which is apparently inevitable. I am aware of the fact that Eagle made a pyro. I am also aware of the fact that MB (correct me if i am wrong about names) took it and tried to edit it to fit D2X-XL's needs. I know that he was unable to do that easily, so he completely remade it. I have nothing (yet) against anyone here, so please don't pit anger against me.

~Anyway, i don't really care what other people do, it is obviously not my business. But i can say what things look like from my view.~So he rebuilt it right? well, i think he has the right (and don't get me wrong, i am just OFFERING a view) to say that he completely remade it, but i would (if it were me) give credit to Eagle for making the original, which in this case served as a template. Whose model the final ASE one is, i don't know and don't really care. all i know is that they both look cool and took alot of work to complete.

SO...you are saying MB that theoretically if i delete the submodels (which i think would be the rockets?) that the problem would be gone? (of course, once i join all of the other submodels)
And i am asking if this could be applied to any model that has submodels like that.

You all have been a great help, and i appreciate that, i am just tired of trying to avoid neear arguements.

=the picture is a comparison, so that maybe it will clear some of this up=

Anyhow, where is Eagle? Can't somebody contact him and see what he thinks?
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Post by Diedel » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:54 am

Eagle has gotten due credit on my Descent site. You should just take your time to read my worklog. But basically it is still a more detailled model of the original (movie) Pyro, and MB's creation has evolved into something of its own right.

The first version of MB's Pyro didn't even have modeled beams at the cockpit. It was a very simple sub model where everything was done with texturing. I had asked MB to model it a bit more. Same was true for the beams along the standard lasers - MB had used textures in the beginning, and I had asked him to model the beams. Our goal was of course to come really close to Eagle's Pyro - it's a beautiful model after all. But no way did MB just push a few vertices and triangles around. Heck, just look at all the gun models he had to add. If you look at both models' turbine fans you will also notice that they look pretty different. Same is true for the fuselage bottom. Just load the textures and compare. MB's model also has weapon mounting points, unlike Eagle's, where the missiles 'hover' below the winglets.

MB wrote that some of his submodels consist of several \"independant\" parts which are stuck together, but form a logical submodel in terms of the format they are stored in. He used the homing missile fins as an example: These are small, flat, closed pyramids he has simply stuck into the missile's fuselage - and it's that \"stuck into\" your engine probably doesn't like. They would need to be flush with the missile's hull for it. Same goes for the weapon models: If you look at them, some are just stuck into the wings, intersecting with the wing submodel. Although that shouldn't be an issue for a renderer, it might be for your engine, for whatever reason.

I believe that what Bubbalou is most sorry about is the fact that he doesn't get as much appreciation for his works as MB does. Well, MB has really breathed new life into Descent with his wonderful 3D models - not just the Pyro, but all the powerups and weapons he rebuilt (bearing my perfectionism all the way :D).
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Post by jshaner » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:12 am

In my eyes, MB has done nothing wrong or infringing.

BTW!!: Can somebody contact Eagle to see what he would say? I think it would be cool to talk to him.
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Re:

Post by MetalBeast » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:15 am

jshaner wrote:So he rebuilt it right? well, i think he has the right (and don't get me wrong, i am just OFFERING a view) to say that he completely remade it, but i would (if it were me) give credit to Eagle for making the original, which in this case served as a template.
Just read the pyro RELOADED* readme-file and you will find the credits for EAGLE ;)
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Post by Diedel » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:18 am

Actually this entire discussion is bullcrap sown by an envious troll trying to spread some FUD.

This has taken up enough of my attention now. MB's Pyro stands for itself and is a great addition to D2X-XL.

People who don't like it can stick with other Descent versions' grainy graphics, 2D sprites, lack of visuals and low res Pyros until they rot.
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Re:

Post by jshaner » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:26 am

zombie999 wrote:
jshaner wrote:So he rebuilt it right? well, i think he has the right (and don't get me wrong, i am just OFFERING a view) to say that he completely remade it, but i would (if it were me) give credit to Eagle for making the original, which in this case served as a template.
Just read the pyro RELOADED* readme-file and you will find the credits for EAGLE ;)
Exactly what I would've done. :D
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Post by SuperSheep » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:50 am

I would like to interject with a few comments/questions.

When you are referring to OOF Tool Diedel, are you referring to OOF Editor, or 3dsgen/MaxOOFUtility?

If you are referring to OOF Editor, then there is absolutely no change done to the model. The model can simply have special points, weapons batteries, and animation added.

If you are referring to 3dsgen/MaxOOFUtility, then it is clearly documented in the Readme that comes with 3dsgen that MaxOOFUtility is the companion program for 3dsgen to reweld all of the vertices after import. No damage is done to the model in the process. It is only used to preserve texture mapping.


In another thread, you mentioned that OOF Tool (???) messed up face normals. Neither OOF Editor or 3dsgen change face normals. OOF Editor does have a built in \"Fix Normals\" function that recalculates face normals. This process \"fixes\" normals on otherwise bad models.


Not trying to derail the thread, just wanted to point out some things that seem to be misunderstood.


Also...Zombie, if 3dsgen does not work on your version of max, there is a simple solution. You can get 3dsmax3, use the tool to create a perfect model. Export to whatever format you desire, then reimport into your version of max.
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Re:

Post by MetalBeast » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:00 am

SuperSheep wrote: Also...Zombie, if 3dsgen does not work on your version of max, there is a simple solution. You can get 3dsmax3, use the tool to create a perfect model. Export to whatever format you desire, then reimport into your version of max.
Hi Supersheep, since I'm tired to defend myself in this forum, I have to clear up some things.

1. I do not need 3DSgen to work perfectly, cause I CAN make the models by myself. I'm using the converted models ONLY as reference, see my other thread.

2. I don't know, where I can buy 3dsmax 3 today? ;)

3. I never wrote, you made bad job on your tools. I just wrote, they are not working proper for me.
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Re:

Post by SuperSheep » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:35 am

zombie999 wrote:
SuperSheep wrote: Also...Zombie, if 3dsgen does not work on your version of max, there is a simple solution. You can get 3dsmax3, use the tool to create a perfect model. Export to whatever format you desire, then reimport into your version of max.
Hi Supersheep, since I'm tired to defend myself in this forum, I have to clear up some things.

1. I do not need 3DSgen to work perfectly, cause I CAN make the models by myself. I'm using the converted models ONLY as reference, see my other thread.

2. I don't know, where I can buy 3dsmax 3 today? ;)

3. I never wrote, you made bad job on your tools. I just wrote, they are not working proper for me.

4. I will never ever answer to bobbalou's poor and bullheaded postings.
1. That's fine, it was merely a suggestion.
2. Dunno, but that's the alternative I would use.
3. Yes you did, and I am not upset. Obviously it's your opinion.
zombie999 wrote:The tool you are talking about is 3DSgen?,
so I have to say you, this tool is crap, sorry.
I used it few times, but the meshes which were produced are useless.
4. I am not affiliated with Bubba nor am I attacking you. I am merely offering my comments here so others do not only have one persons perspective.
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Re:

Post by MetalBeast » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:41 am

SuperSheep wrote: 3. Yes you did, and I am not upset. Obviously it's your opinion.
zombie999 wrote:The tool you are talking about is 3DSgen?,
so I have to say you, this tool is crap, sorry.
I used it few times, but the meshes which were produced are useless.
and I wrote in other post:
So 3dsgen is just doing what it can do, I think supersheep did his best, but OOF is using non-standard modeling convetions...
So, sorry for this, what I did mean was, this tool-output is bad. But it is relative, just if somebody can use the second part of this tool, the "MAX OOF utility". But the most people today, can't.
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Post by jshaner » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:43 am

http://files.h2vista.net/software/3dsmax/

These are the trials for versions 5-9.They probably won't be help, but i guess in the future if you need another version, here they are.
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Post by Diedel » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:02 pm

SuperSheep wrote:When you are referring to OOF Tool Diedel, are you referring to OOF Editor, or 3dsgen/MaxOOFUtility?

If you are referring to OOF Editor, then there is absolutely no change done to the model. The model can simply have special points, weapons batteries, and animation added.

If you are referring to 3dsgen/MaxOOFUtility, then it is clearly documented in the Readme that comes with 3dsgen that MaxOOFUtility is the companion program for 3dsgen to reweld all of the vertices after import. No damage is done to the model in the process. It is only used to preserve texture mapping.
I was simply asking. Thanks for the info.
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Re:

Post by BUBBALOU » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:45 pm

zombie999 wrote: P.S. You know you have no permission to use this pyro model for any projects, except personally use.
BUBBALOU wrote:BTW that's Eagle's Pyro (Obvious poly signature still on the model) anyone can use it you do not need zombiee999's permission to use something that was not his anyways... edited or not. I have Eagle's email if you want to ask him....

Sorry certain defensive individuals are getting their panties in a bunch for stating the obvious...simple... truth :o

--------------------------------------------------

jshaner : Once again (Referring to Eagle's)
BUBBALOU wrote:Now If you want the original version before it was ever hacked into D3 and hacked back out by WOA, I can get you a copy. Also has original TGA's for the paintjob I believe it is in 3dsMax5 format

I seem to have a better workout dodging your stupidity than attempting to grasp the weight of your intelligence.
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Post by MetalBeast » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:51 pm

See the screens here:
viewtopic.php?t=13618

Btw. this topic can be closed, cause I'm making special version of the pyro for jshaner, which fits his engines rules.
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