Strange Problem in DLE

For Descent, Descent II and Descent3 level editing and modification assistance.
Post Reply
mike8887123
DBB Ace
DBB Ace
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:46 pm

Strange Problem in DLE

Post by mike8887123 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:16 pm

A few of the levels I made have a problem where, after building most of the level, adding new segments seems to automatically connect vertices on the newly-spawned segment to vertices on some other segment waaaay far away. In other words, I cannot add new segments without it screwing up my level (undo doesn't work, all I can do is not save it and re-start DLE). Again, I get a real real long stretch in the newly-inserted segment that goes all the way across the whole level (or at least to some other part not so far away). This problem is no good because I'm finishing up what I see as one of the most awesome levels I've made thus far (I'm getting better at level editing slowly).

And this has happened before. Back then, I didn't mention it on here because I was able to do away with the segments in those levels. In those levels, the segment count was 1302 (the 1302nd cube messes up like this). However, today, on one of my newer levels, it occurred around a segment count of something like 1169 (IIRC). I don't understand why, since my segment count is well under 20K.

Has anyone seen this before or know what it is? I'm going to check my diagnostics tab again, but I really don't want to look at DLE for a few hours at this point (DLE fatigue). But I know I'm not past any limits yet. I am getting close to my wall limit (I'm at like 210 or so), and my object count is in the 200's, but still not too high.

Man I hope I can finish this level the way I want to.

(If my description of the problem is still too vague, then let me know, and I'll try to explain it more clearly and in further detail).

Thanks much.
User avatar
Sirius
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 5437
Joined: Fri May 28, 1999 2:01 am
Location: Bellevue, WA
Contact:

Re: Strange Problem in DLE

Post by Sirius » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:43 pm

I'm not absolutely sure what this is, but I am wondering if you're running out of vertices. Could you check in the Diagnostics tab how close this is to the maximum?

Otherwise, do you have any experience in opening tickets on SourceForge? That would be the easiest way to track this issue. I'll resort to e-mail if that becomes a problem.
mike8887123
DBB Ace
DBB Ace
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:46 pm

Re: Strange Problem in DLE

Post by mike8887123 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:53 pm

I just checked

Vertices: 3286
Segments: 1132
Walls: 203

First, I'm going to try getting DLE up and running on my XP machine and see if that resolves the issue. Maybe its something with my Windows7 computer.

If not, then maybe I could do away with some cubes. I still got a lot of cool stuff in the elvle

Thanks
User avatar
Sirius
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 5437
Joined: Fri May 28, 1999 2:01 am
Location: Bellevue, WA
Contact:

Re: Strange Problem in DLE

Post by Sirius » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:08 pm

Hmm, the limit for that is 60000 vertices anyway. That wouldn't be the problem.

If you still run into issues on Windows XP, would you mind sending me a copy of the level (via PM - it looks like it supports file attachments) so I can take a look? The problem you're describing sounds like it has no legitimate reason to be happening so I would want to make sure it's not something that can be resolved in DLE before you settle for less.

Also, what version of DLE are you currently using? The most recent is 1.11.86 - while I can't think of any recent changes that are likely to improve just inserting cubes, if you have a very old version it might make a difference.
mike8887123
DBB Ace
DBB Ace
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:46 pm

Re: Strange Problem in DLE

Post by mike8887123 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:29 pm

I'm still trying to get it to work on the XP computer. Are there different DLE programs for windows7 vs XP? Perhaps I'm trying to run a windows7 one on my XP machine. I doubt that's the problem though. Either way, I'm going to have to try installing it all over again (with the XP version if there is a difference).

And secondly, is there some special directory to install it in relative to the source port location? For ex, should I install DLE in a sub folder of the rebirth installation? Also, another possibility is that I don't have the right DLL files.

The versions I use are 1.11.69 and 1.11.81 (I switch back and forth for the different zooming- once the level gets big, 69 is good for far away from the origin, and 81 is good for close). The segment problem I've described occurs in both versions.

I wouldn't mind sending you the level. I wonder what would happen if you tried inserting cubes on your machine to see if it happens. I hope its just a problem specific to my computer and not something I did in the level. Plus, this way, you could actual see the level and comment on other attributes such as size, span, complexity, etc. This level spans farther than other levels I've made. The segment count is comparable to other levels, but the xyz span extends farther out from the origin. Its roomier.

Thanks a lot for the help
User avatar
Xfing
DBB Admiral
DBB Admiral
Posts: 1497
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:03 am
Location: Ringing Satan's Doorbell

Re: Strange Problem in DLE

Post by Xfing » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:14 am

I have been having this problem also. Not sure what particular circumstances it arises in, it just does >sometimes<.

I used to think it was due to having other cubes marked while inserting new segments, but nope, that's a different thing altogether (and logically not a bug). I'll be sure to provide a screenshot the next time I encounter this.
Descent 1,5: Level layouts done: 34/54 Secret level layouts done: 1/6
mike8887123
DBB Ace
DBB Ace
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:46 pm

Re: Strange Problem in DLE

Post by mike8887123 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:40 pm

I'm relived to know that someone else has seen this problem. I wonder if just moving the whacked out vertices back to their normal positions would work (probably have to disconnect them first).

I remember, the one time I inserted one of these, that it messed with the 'other' cube - the one you get by pressing space bar.
mike8887123
DBB Ace
DBB Ace
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:46 pm

Re: Strange Problem in DLE

Post by mike8887123 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:19 pm

I'm in good standing as of now in terms of my level surviving. This problem was that I still needed to insert new segments to make the reactor room and exit shaft, but I couldn't. However, by removing some blocks in other places together with accepting a smaller than planned reactor room (and a short exit shaft), I was able to finish it. And I barely compromised the other areas. At least its a fully functional level now. I'm at like 1128 segments or so (it seems this problem happens in the 1130's with this level). With this problem, it seems as if each individual level, for some reason, comes up with its own segment "limit" after which I does the far vertex stretching thing. Sirius, if you still want me to send it to you for your own reasons (say you have some reasons you want to experiment with this problem), then let me know.

***I wanted to mention another thing:
Occasionally, my levels will just shut off (rebirth.exe terminates). Earlier, I noticed that it happens only in levels that have a thiefbot, but it wasn't conclusive enough evidence to attribute causality to theifbot. However, what happened today made me realize that thiefbot causes this crash (for me anyway).

In one part, I have a hole in the ground with a wall that opens as an ambush when you unlock a different secret nearby. In the hole are 3 diamond claws. This area is behind the yellow door. Everything worked fine. Then I decided to add theifbot in with the 3 diamonds.

After adding thiefbot, I test played the level. It crashed right when I did algroove (that is, got the yellow key). So I tried again. It didn't crash until shortly after I did algroove again. It did this every time for about 5-6 tries, and always after aglroove. Then, instead of doing algroove, I decided to actually get the yellow itself. This time, everything worked fine throughout the level, but it crashed shortly after getting the yellow key. Note that I didn't even unlock that secret yet. I only gained access to the area its in- by getting the yellow key.

** When I removed theifbot from the level, it stopped crashing.

Now, I noticed this before in a few ice levels I was working on a few months ago. The level crashed once or twice. For some reason I suspected theifbot (probably getting into stuff he's not supposed to if you know him). Those levels didn't crash ever again for me after removing thiefbot. Still, thiefbot causality wasn't persuasive enough to me yet, but after today - the above story about my current level - its way more likely thiefbot is the culprit. His removal definitely stopped the crash.

All of these bugs I'm mentioning are not inhibiting me. I just work around them. Thiefbot isn't as important to me. I only want him in a few boards anyway, and he has only caused problems in a few.

I'm just mentioning this. Its not like a need help at this point with these problems. I just feel that everyone would want to know about this.
User avatar
Sirius
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 5437
Joined: Fri May 28, 1999 2:01 am
Location: Bellevue, WA
Contact:

Re: Strange Problem in DLE

Post by Sirius » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:47 am

OK, lots of Q&A here. :)

No, there is no separate XP or Windows 7 version. It doesn't care where you install it, but missing DLLs are definitely a possibility. These should be contained within the .zip for the program though. I am wondering if the issue is that DLE uses Windows components that are not present in XP - that wasn't by design but it's been so long since it was tested in XP that it's definitely a possibility.

Thiefbot issues: Congratulations, sounds like you broke Rebirth's AI pathfinding. This reminds me of a crash I've seen in another level I was working on - I haven't been able to determine why it happens yet though. That one was related to weapon respawning in multiplayer.

Back to the issue at hand: unfortunately, screenshots would be unlikely to help. The absolute best case scenario is if you can get to a point where inserting a cube from a specific cube/side always causes something to break, but unfortunately this doesn't sound entirely predictable, so that might not happen.

If, however, there is a problem that is consistently happening in the 1130s range of cube counts in the level, then that's probably good enough for me to figure out - assuming it's not computer-specific. But it's worth a shot - if you have the chance, send it over. If the attachment system fails then I'll PM you an e-mail address to send it to instead or something like that.
mike8887123
DBB Ace
DBB Ace
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:46 pm

Re: Strange Problem in DLE

Post by mike8887123 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:47 pm

Bear with me Sirius if I happen to be MIA sometimes. I am going to send the level to you. How I do that is another story. I know how to attach to an email, but I might need someone to show me how to do it through descentbb.net. Its probably very obvious, but I tend to overlook things on websites. We'll worry about that when I'm about to send it though (gimmi a couple days to a week).

I don't need the glitch fixed for this level. I managed to finish it. I view this glitch as something I have to sometimes work around, BUT I know you still want to check it out, and I'll definitely support the on-going software improvement.

I'm busy with other things sometimes, but I will find out how to send and do it soon. Just letting you know that I haven't forgotten.

Oh, and maybe you should ask Xfing for his level too. He said he had the same problem. This way, you'd have twice the evidence.

And thanks much for the support.
User avatar
Sirius
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 5437
Joined: Fri May 28, 1999 2:01 am
Location: Bellevue, WA
Contact:

Re: Strange Problem in DLE

Post by Sirius » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:16 pm

OK, quick step-by-step for when you have time to read it then.

Private message area: at the top of the page there is a link saying "0 new messages" (or maybe more than zero, depends :)) - go there
There is a "Compose message" link on the left column just under the horizontal yellow line.
Now you get to a fairly webmail-like page. If you look under the Preview/Submit/Save draft/Cancel buttons, you'll see a "Browse..." button - that's the attachments area. I think you have to click "Add the file" after picking the file and before sending the message for it to be successfully attached.
User avatar
Xfing
DBB Admiral
DBB Admiral
Posts: 1497
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:03 am
Location: Ringing Satan's Doorbell

Re: Strange Problem in DLE

Post by Xfing » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:08 am

mike8887123 wrote: Oh, and maybe you should ask Xfing for his level too. He said he had the same problem. This way, you'd have twice the evidence.
No good. I never actually preserved this error. I either closed the editor without saving (I save real often, which is a good thing) or simply deleted all the affected segments manually. The error is annoying, but not debilitating if you know how to handle it.
Descent 1,5: Level layouts done: 34/54 Secret level layouts done: 1/6
mike8887123
DBB Ace
DBB Ace
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:46 pm

Re: Strange Problem in DLE

Post by mike8887123 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:47 pm

That's the case with me too. I've never saved it like that either. But I don't think it matters since he could still replicate the problem (or try to at least).

Either that, or we can send him copies of our files that are saved in that state.

Speaking in which, I gotta get on with sending it to Sirius already. Sorry to procrastinate. I'll get around to it shortly, for real this time.
Post Reply