Multiple Boss Robots, possible problem?

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DarkFlameWolf
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Multiple Boss Robots, possible problem?

Post by DarkFlameWolf » Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:17 pm

From what I understand, having multiple boss robots, when destroying one, it doesn't destroy the others. Does this also mean it doesn't set off the reactor countdown when only 1 of 6 bosses are destroyed? If that's so, what will happen in a level like level 18 of the mission campaign: Obisidian which had 6 boss robots and killing any one of them would set off the reactor shtudown and kill the others. Do we now have destroy all 6 boss robots to destroy the level?
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Post by Kyouryuu » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:23 pm

Entropy 2 and Mandrill had similar missions that relied on killing any one boss to finish a level.
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Post by Diedel » Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:45 am

DFW,

All this applies only if you have checked \"multiple bosses\" in gameplay options. If that is the case, boss robots and reactors are all considered 'bosses', and the level countdown will only start after the last boss has been destroyed, which ever that is.

If this option is not checked and Descent (even the original one) finds both bosses and a reactor in the level (which for whatever reason is the case for the D2:CS levels containing a boss) it will remove the reactor (actually turn it into a shield orb).

Kyo,

that was because standard D2 doesn't support multiple bosses. I added that option when I found custom missions containing more than one boss, because I think that this might have been what the authors would have liked to have. For me, if there's several bosses, it seems to be natural having to kill them all before the level ends.
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Re:

Post by DarkFlameWolf » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:45 pm

Diedel wrote:that was because standard D2 doesn't support multiple bosses. I added that option when I found custom missions containing more than one boss, because I think that this might have been what the authors would have liked to have. For me, if there's several bosses, it seems to be natural having to kill them all before the level ends.
Good of you to assume what level designers want to do with their levels and make it standard for the engine to behave that way. In Obisidian, I believe Darkhorse and Sirius would not have put all those bosses in there unless they all wanted to die or be destroyed at the same time. You see, these bosses are spread out. So once you find the keys necessary to get to the exit door, its up to you to strategically find the boss closest to the door and destroy it. Otherwise, destroying a boss too far out would not give you enough time to get to the exit and thus dying. A good design tactic centered around the bosses 'hive mind' feature of being destroyed when one dies. This was also featured in level 3 of Entropy Experiment 2 by Luke Schneider, he even mentioned in his briefing that if you kill one boss, the other dies too. I think level designers intended it do this.
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Post by Sirius » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:49 pm

Probably accurate, although I have to say it could be a useful feature to at least have the option nowadays.

(Although personally, I would rather have the control of that than have to ask players to switch multiple bosses on or off!)
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Re:

Post by Diedel » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:11 pm

DarkFlameWolf wrote:Good of you to assume what level designers want to do with their levels and make it standard for the engine to behave that way.
It would be good for you if you would finally learn to accurately read what has been written. This behaviour is not standard, particularly not for non D2X-XL missions (actually it doesn't work for these, whether the flag is set or not).
Sirius wrote:(Although personally, I would rather have the control of that than have to ask players to switch multiple bosses on or off!)
Sirius,

the moment you hand a level over to the public you have to leave it to them how they want to play it, like it or not. Personally I find it an unacceptable interference with my personal freedom if a game or level designer forces me to use something he made in a way that limits what could be done with the game or level (apart from cheating). If I want to ruin my singleplayer experience, my problem. I have cheat codes there too, don't I?
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Post by Bakdraft » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:56 pm

That ruins the original intent and expression of the designer, however. Not only that, it completely removes the challenge, just like cheating. Cheating is certainly fun to mess around with, but steamrolling the bots loses it's appeal rather quickly. If there's no challenge... why play?
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Post by Kyouryuu » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:23 pm

These missions were conceived deliberately where one boss eliminates the others. That's the gameplay rationale of the mission. This is the way Descent 2 \"supports\" multiple bosses. It's an exploit of the engine, but totally legit.

Fortunately, I think Multiple Bosses is disabled by default, so it shouldn't be an issue unless someone consciously changes it.
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Re:

Post by TechPro » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:28 pm

Bakdraft wrote:That ruins the original intent and expression of the designer, however. Not only that, it completely removes the challenge, just like cheating. Cheating is certainly fun to mess around with, but steamrolling the bots loses it's appeal rather quickly. If there's no challenge... why play?
That would be the reason for giving the "feature" the ability to be turned on or off... just like using cheats... you either use them or you don't. It's the choice of the person playing the level.
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Re:

Post by Diedel » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:02 am

Bakdraft wrote:That ruins the original intent and expression of the designer, however. Not only that, it completely removes the challenge, just like cheating. Cheating is certainly fun to mess around with, but steamrolling the bots loses it's appeal rather quickly. If there's no challenge... why play?
Sure, but if I want to get a gun and shoot in my own foot, I am free to do it, aren't I? :)
  • I looked this up in the program code: Multiple bosses is only available in D2X-XL missions (special level format only D2X-XL can read).
  • If you turn it on, actually the battle gets harder, as the other bosses don't get killed if you kill one. So the challenge actually gets bigger
I have a level in the making that has 3 bots in the final area. You bet that will be a hell of a fight. ;)
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Post by Sirius » Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:35 am

The level designer is already forcing you to do things by how he makes the level, where and what powerups and robots he puts in, and how the triggers are set up.

The problem with the multiple bosses thing comes in when you intentionally balance the level to have the player kill every single boss robot; if they turn the feature off (or don't turn it on) that's their choice but they won't be playing the game you designed but a kind of broken version of it.
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Post by Diedel » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:07 am

I give a flyin fk about how ppl play my missions - it's entirely their business! They ruin *their* experience with it, not mine after all!

They can whip up DLE-XP and add more powerups, take away bots, or they can use cheat codes anyway.

Why the hell don't you stop trying to control other people?!
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Post by Kyouryuu » Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:53 pm

Any good level builder knows that polish, balance, and tuning are what separate a fantastic map from a mediocre piece of garbage. That is a hard fact that simply cannot be argued.

Perhaps you'd make better maps if you gave a \"flyin fk\" about balance. It's really quite important, m'kay?

The problem with the flag is that you have a situations where the player can unintentionally cheat. The flag defaults to normal Descent 2 behavior - which is correct for the majority of cases. But you are counting on the player to ensure that setting if they venture into maps where multiple bosses were never a presumption.

This is what makes this a balancing issue as opposed to a cheating issue.
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Post by Diedel » Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:58 pm

Kyo,

you cannot read, do you?

#1 Multiple bosses is only available in D2X-XL missions
#2 If a player wants to cheat/ruin his gaming experience it is his/her business

Did you get that now, or am I just wasting my time?
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Re:

Post by Kyouryuu » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:57 pm

Diedel wrote:#1 Multiple bosses is only available in D2X-XL missions
Keep it that way.
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Post by Diedel » Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:45 am

Do you always need to have the last word? :P
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