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Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:20 am
by Diedel
The only difference between paste and quick paste is that quick paste uses some predefined block file name, thus saving you the step of selecting a block file.

You always need to be careful not to have extra level areas marked when saving blocks (e.g. from a previous paste operation), because DLE-XP will not unmark the pasted block when you mark another block.

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:43 am
by jakee308
yep that's what i though also. however when i use paste and make my selection the block only shows up as points highlighted red. i can move them as a group but when i try to join them to the current side nothing happens or they pasted in the wrong place. when i quick paste the block shows up as textured cubes and when i move the block it seems to join easier? i don't know if easier is the word but using quick paste somehow works more consistently.

i also can't see how to select the side to use as the reference when saving a block. from the dmb help file it says the current side is used as the reference point and when you paste it in you move the side to where you want it. sometimes the block is flipped depending on the current side when i paste it? that's strange. i am not understanding the rules of placement using the current side when saving or pasting.
this is the stuff i meant when i wanted a level editing thread. this may not be a bug report. i don't know if it's me or the program. hey i'm betting it's me.
i'm not stupid, iiii'''mmmm jjjjuuuussssttt vvvveeerrryyy sssllllooowww. :lol:

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:29 am
by Diedel
Actually, there are two reference sides: One in the level and one in the block. The one in the block is set when saving it: Usually it's the side connected to the current side. Now don't ask me what happens when the current side is not adjacent to the block, but far away or inside of it. Usually you will make the current side a side adjacent to a block cube, so that shouldn't be a problem.

Now when you paste a block, the blocks current side and the levels current side are joined. You can change the block orientation by changing the current point on the current side.

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:43 am
by jakee308
see that's why i'm wondering if something is wrong. the block usually gets pasted in opposite of that. it does not start at the current side. i have to play with where the current side is to get it at least arranged so all i have to do is move it up/down side to side.
when i saved the block i set the side and cube that i wanted to work with as the current side/cube. then saved it.
when i paste it back in i set the current side of the cube i want to paste it to. these cubes are the same size on those sides.

right so far?

when i go to paste it, it is not in position to join the sides. it is oriented upside down. i have to set the opposite side from what i want to paste to then at least it's oriented correctly but i have to move it quite a ways. to get the block to the correct position. ??? i get it to work but it works opposite to the described way to do it.
(where's that head beating against the wall emoticon?) :)
edit: Image (my thanks to sirius)

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:19 am
by Image
Is it possible there may be, in the later future, some way of making a Descent 2 Face editor (like D3Edit)? That'd be awesome! :D And save me alot of time making these confusing constructions; not to mention the fact that Descent 2 mines will look so much cooler :D

I'm mainly thinking there should be a way to toggle between cube/face editing..that way, when the easier rooms must be done, it can be done quickly and efficiently with cubes 8)

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:17 pm
by Diedel
That's not possible, image, because that's not the way the D2 engines works.

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:15 pm
by TechPro
With DMB2... I always had to make sure the "current" cube was not one of the marked cubes I was cutting or copying... and was instead the cube that the marked cubes "attached" to.

That way, when pasting the cubes... It pastes them attached to the "current" cube. (current line indicates the orientation... which I always had to experiment with).

I'd image DLE-XP works the same way. Is that what you're trying to say?

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:56 pm
by jakee308
yes, i tried that way also. i still had problems getting the block to orient itself where i wanted it to be. while the block is highlighted in red you can move it but when you switch to the cube you want
to join to, the highlight turns yellow and i don't know how to highlight the block again so i can adjust it.
it's been hit or miss. i kept deleting the new block. hah! turns out i wasn't deleting it, the editor just didn't show it because of the degree of
rendering set. i had 6-7 sets of blocks all stacked on top of each other. the "check mine" never gave any warning so i guess it's legal to have that.

Note: i did get it to work after a fashion. it doesn't seem to work like the dmb help file says but dmb was flaky about blocks also.

actually the common denom is me. what was that acronym? pebcak! pebcak! pebcak!

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:43 am
by Sirius
I have no idea how much of this you already know, but the general way blocks work;

When the block is copied or cut, its orientation is stored relative to the current side at the time. This side acts as a reference for where the block goes, basically.

When you paste it, DMB2 or DLE-XP (they both work the same there) consider the current side that 'reference side', and place the block in the same position relative to the pasting current side as it was relative to the copying/cutting current side.

This happens even when the pasting current side is not actually the same shape or orientation at all. The editor just rotates the block to suit.

The behaviour is most understandable when the copying current side is joined to a cube that is a member of the block being copied; like a doorway into the room. When you paste it, the current cube as of the paste then becomes the doorway into the copied room.

Now there is one other very important matter here; THE CURRENT POINT ON THE CURRENT FACE DOES MATTER. It's the only way DLE-XP can tell which way is up or down; if you have it wrong it'll paste upside down or on a side. Make sure you have the right point/edge selected before you paste (or do it by trial and error if you feel like it).

Those general rules make block pasting at least fairly predictable. It is a bit trickier still when you paste it with a current cube/side of different proportions, but that probably doesn't worry you much at the moment anyway.

Edit: Oh, and a couple other notes. Degree of rendering can be turned to no limit by setting it to 0, which you are probably fully aware of anyway.

It is legal to have cubes in exactly the same position, but it isn't advisable unless the other sets of cubes are inaccessible; otherwise you can quite easily get weird effects. (I've been hit by robots out of line of sight before because of that.)

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:35 am
by Diedel
Sirius and Techpro, very good stuff you wrote here. :)

DLE-XP works the same way with blocks DMB2 does.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:15 am
by Sirius
The only difference is DLE-XP has quick copy and .blx format... I need not say how much faster this tends to make things.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:44 am
by jakee308
TY TY yes! i like the .blx also it is quite handy. so the point was THE POINT. i was wondering if the placement of the current line/point also had anything to do with how the block showed up.
sirius thanks for the diplomacy but never assume i
know something. the obvious can slip right past me :)

that explanation has given me the insight i need to understand what's going on. ty

btw what about changing the highlight back to the block you want to paste. is there a hot key to go into block mode for the position editor? key b?

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:49 am
by Diedel
Yes, B puts you into block mode (L for line mode/next line, P for point mode/next point).

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:24 am
by Image
When I zoom in realy far (or simply far enough) rooms behind my POV are displayed again...Take a lookie:

(picture of view zoomed into floor of room and room being displayed over floor texture of zoomed in room)

Recreation: Zoom in.

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:50 am
by Sirius
Yeah, that's the exact same problem there, except you have a screenshot to illustrate it.

It is still just too weird for me... :) What does DLE-XP use for rendering - OpenGL? D3D?

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:42 am
by Diedel
Neither nor - custom software renderer built by Bryan Aamot.

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:51 am
by Sirius
Ah... that would explain a bit since he started before those things were much in common use.

Why, then, is it all of a sudden doing stuff like this, I wonder?

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:03 am
by Diedel
I never experienced this.

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:39 pm
by jakee308
1. still wondering about some of the see-thru textures having a cyan background (believe it was white before) and having a cyan color around the see thru openings in the game. re: the grated door, the fan, the grill. the prisoner door doesn't have it.?

this appeared about 2-3 versions ago. i'm pretty sure the game files didn't have this coloring in them. maybe palette wrong? me, my files?.

2. have 2 2-sided open walls that get closed by a trigger. when triggered the walls close but the textures don't show. tried resetting transparency checked the correct target sides. (i said they close just no texture but checked anyway). they worked b4. but how long ago i don't know.

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:30 pm
by Diedel
1. Which ones?

2. Cannot reproduce here. Send lvl pls.

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:54 pm
by jakee308
btw, this is latest and almost the last version of my intro level. the walls i am speaking of are in the "yellow" area. in 2 tunnels leading up to fan shaped cavern. there's a fan, grilles, grid type doors in this level so you can also see the blue/cyan shading. no password required.

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:55 pm
by Diedel
Mind giving me the segment numbers? :)

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:02 pm
by jakee308
segments? meaning cube numbers?
if segment = cube then 272,5 + 273,6 and 308,1 + 307,3 = walls to close.

triggers =
#21 = 306,1
#20 = 274,5

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:49 pm
by D3Hack
If I set a side of a cube to be a hi-res texture, then try to align it using "Reset Texture" in the texture dialouge, it is aligned as if it were a 64x64 texture, which in my case is only half the size of the actual texture. This means that it will be 2x too small. I can work around this by expanding the texture alignment twice, but he-- that's annoying! :x

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:12 pm
by Diedel

segment == cube.


changed. I once thought it would make sense that way, but found it was rather a nuisance.

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:11 pm
by D3Hack
Diedel wrote:changed. I once thought it would make sense that way, but found it was rather a nuisance.
That's better. Thx. :)
I can see why you would want it to be like that some times, but yeah more times than not it's just annoying.

One more thing about hi-res textures... On any given cube side or wall or whatever, if I set the primary texture to be lo-res and the secondary texture to be hi-res (or vice versa), the secondary texture will not be displayed anywhere I can see. Not anywhere in the texture dialouge or in the wall dialouge or in the trigger dialouge or in the mine view.

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:26 pm
by Diedel
I haven't yet come around to enhance the DLE-XP rendering code to work with combined textures of different resolutions.

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:09 pm
by Pumo
I found this problem in DLE-XP:

When i convert a Descent 1 level to Descent 2, after selecting all textures, i click on convert, and then DLE-XP starts to convert, but it lasts forever and makes my computer slooooow, reading the HD all the time!
I waited about 15 minutes but DLE-XP didn't finish to convert, then i closed it with the task manager and i found DLE-XP was using about 40MB of ram and started to raise more and more!! :shock:

There is a way to fix this annoying problem?

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:56 am
by Diedel

i will check this.

Btw, DLE-XP can now render two textures of different resolution together.

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:26 am
by Image
When I load Burp 3 in the latest version of DLE-XP it crashes :(

I have 4 512x512 custom textures in it. They replace these:





Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:57 pm
by Sapphire Wolf
I have a really stupid question. How come my DLE-XP's frame-rate drops while I'm editing, did this happened to you?

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:53 pm
by Sirius
The larger the level, the slower the editor will be. If it's upward of 500 cubes, this will be quite noticeable (but nowhere near as bad as DMB2, I can assure you of that).

It is slowest of all when you are performing geometrical operations (changing cube structure for instance) with a large cube count - texture work isn't as bad. Viewpoint rotation can be a bit slow as well, but I don't mind that as much.

Generally, if you're experiencing this, you should switch to lines-only mode while editing (save for texture work - it's pretty daft to do that then). It doesn't make editing much more difficult, and it renders much faster.

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:26 am
by jakee308
i was testing the light tool panel. used the default setting. this turned the level totally dark. then tried to use illuminate to get the level brighter again(i marked all cubes).
this did not work. tried scaling the light at 200% (which has kinda worked before). did lighten some of the level where a light was but did not scale up any of the other light levels. no matter what i tried i couldn't get the level back to the way it was when i started. this is not good. in case of mistakes there should be a way (other than a backup) to return to your original light settings.

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:45 am
by Sirius
If you're like me and tend to skimp a bit on the lights you can knock Illumination up to 200%... usually makes things decently seeable for me.

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:01 am
by jakee308
if you'll notice i tried that and it wouldn't work. it's why i'm posting this in a bug report. it didn't do this b4. say 3-5 versions ago. i could ramp up the illumination or scaling and raise the light level back to bright. not this time.

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:00 am
by Diedel
I have just tested the illumination function with DLE-XP 1.5.21, and couldn't find a problem. Please e-mail me the level, jakee, ok?

Btw, cool avatar! :)

(Although it can't beat Aus-RED-5's ;)).

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:27 pm
by Sirius
Scaling the light level is different from raising illumination - since the scale will only affect areas that are currently lit - but okay.

Render depth may also help, depending what you're doing.

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:25 pm
by jakee308
as i understand it. illuminate is used to set an absolute value of light in the mine or marked seg. scaling sets the light level to a percentage of what it is currently. true?
if yes then my illuminate doesn't do that. (sorry i'll have to dup that error later today as i del that .hog so i could recover a backup)
scaling of over 100% should raise the illumination of the marked segs. THAT has worked in the past but not this time. perhaps i am not grasping what is meant by illuminate? to me it means that any marked sides or the sides of marked cubes will have their corner light values set to the amount in the box. scaling i understand. averaging the corners i understand. where i seem to be not comprehending is the illuminate value. i thought it meant "set all corner light values to this amount." if that's not the case, then what values does illuminate change and by what amount relative to the amount entered in the box?

also, when you set a "light" texture, then set the color, why wouldn't the color show up in the level.
yes i set the show colored lights check box. i set a light to show blue but the light isn't blue. does the light cast only affect an object in the cube? i thought the whole cube would glow blue.

it seems the more i learn the less i know. :D

diedel hah! thanks. found it prowling around for images for screens. speaking of which, any comments or progress on the bezels? i have discovered how to use psp more effectively and how to get smaller images with more detail in them.

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:58 am
by Sirius
jakee308 wrote:perhaps i am not grasping what is meant by illuminate? to me it means that any marked sides or the sides of marked cubes will have their corner light values set to the amount in the box. scaling i understand. averaging the corners i understand. where i seem to be not comprehending is the illuminate value. i thought it meant "set all corner light values to this amount." if that's not the case, then what values does illuminate change and by what amount relative to the amount entered in the box?
Oh... no, it's far more sophisticated (and, I have to say, useful) than that.

Illuminate sets the overall effectiveness of the lights within the marked cubes. If it's 200%, then they will be twice as bright (in terms of how much light is cast) than if it is 100%.

If there are no lights, then all the light values will be 0%.

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:36 am
by Diedel
Illumination sets the corner light values of each (marked, if any marked) sides depending on their distance to the lights to those lights' brightness in the level. The scaling and light render depth functions only affect how bright each light is to be considered, and how far it will reach (how slow or fast its light decays over the distance).

A 'light' is a texture with a brightness value > 0 - you can have arbitrary textures have a brightness value > 0 using the brightness slider in the texture tool.

See the DLE-XP section of my D2 side for more details.

So illumination actually sets the corner brightness values. To keep manually set values, you need to mark those areas of the level that should have them automatically set (computed), and leave the manually adjusted ones unmarked.