Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

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Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Nightshade » Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:07 pm

Just declare yourself a woman and beat all the women in the women's competition:

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Transgender Kiwi weightlifter Laurel Hubbard's first win in an international competition has ruffled feathers across the Tasman.

Hubbard was competing at the Australian International event in Melbourne on Sunday and shot out to an early lead in the women's over 90kg division.

The 39-year-old lifted 123kg in the snatch discipline, and then produced a clean-and-jerk lift of 145kg for a 268kg total - 19kg better than the second-placed competitor.

Hubbard was congratulated by her competitors after the ceremony.

However, afterwards, bronze medallist Kaitlyn Fassina was less effusive.

"She is who she is. That's the way the politics...and what the New Zealanders have decided. I can't say much more than that. She is seen as female and that's the way it is."

Two-time Olympian Deborah Acason went further.

"If I was in that category I wouldn't feel like I was in an equal situation. I just feel that if it's not even why are we doing the sport?"

Weightlifting New Zealand's Emma Pilkington said Hubbard was feeling "overwhelmed".

"She's so genuine, she loves all her team-mates and her teammates are all really supportive."

That result will give Hubbard a major claim for selection for the NZ weightlifting team for next year's Commonwealth Games on the Gold Coast in Australia.

It's understood Hubbard, who once competed at national level as Gavin Hubbard, transitioned in her mid-30s.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-spor ... ting-first
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Top Gun » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:16 pm

[Deleted - Personal Shot]
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Ferno » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:43 pm

First it's hating muslims, now it's hating trans people.

well done!
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by callmeslick » Mon May 01, 2017 8:02 am

but he never does it along racial lines. [Deleted - Personal Shot]
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Vander » Mon May 01, 2017 12:51 pm

I think there is a legitimate concern, at least if one is concerned with the rules of competitive weight lifting. (which I am not) I liken it a bit to that amputee runner with the blades.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Spidey » Mon May 01, 2017 1:58 pm

Women athletes are just going to have to get used to getting their asses kicked by former men.

I have a feeling that many progressives can see a problem with this, but will keep their mouths closed to avoid being called bigots.

And the feminists are between a rock and a hard place...

So everyone will just keep pretending that hormone treatments and such will level the playing field.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Tunnelcat » Mon May 01, 2017 2:55 pm

I agree with Vander. Once a person goes through puberty, their body takes on all the characteristics of whatever sex they were born with, including bigger bones and stronger muscles. So if a male has a sex change after puberty, the former "he" will have a competitive advantage, because even suddenly taking estrogen does not negate all that pubescent hormonal growth. Now if the sex change was made before puberty, none of that will apply.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Jeff250 » Mon May 01, 2017 5:36 pm

I suppose the ideal solution would be to, instead of having two categories, male and female, have four categories, male -> male, male -> female, female -> male, and female -> female, if not for the disproportionately small amount of people in male -> female and female -> male.

It's strange how some innate things are seen as fair advantages and some are not. If you're short, you're going to be at a handicap in many sports, but if you're cisgender, then that is not seen as a similar kind of handicap.

Even if we do nothing to change the rules, and even if transgender people dominate female athletics, I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. After the integration of the NBA, it became dominated by black athletes, and this was probably even one of the things people against its integration feared happening, but now we don't think anything of it.

I think it's important to not just be against change for the sake of it. If someone were to make an argument for transgender people competing being unfair, I think they would have to also explain why allowing tall people to compete isn't just as unfair.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Spidey » Mon May 01, 2017 6:10 pm

Well if you took some kind of height enhancing drugs…instead of it being completely natural…

If you were born with your advantage, or worked real hard on it...I don't see a problem...that's what competition is all about.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Top Gun » Mon May 01, 2017 7:40 pm

Vander wrote:I think there is a legitimate concern, at least if one is concerned with the rules of competitive weight lifting. (which I am not) I liken it a bit to that amputee runner with the blades.
Of course there are legitimate concerns and no easy answers to them, but simplifying them down to an ignorant fear of what's different a la the OP is the most nonconstructive way on the planet of resolving them.

And to our lovely moderating staff, your enthusiasm is commendable, but at what point do we maybe give any consideration to the random passer-by who happens to be Muslim or trans or whichever other group TB's currently shitting on and sees him continuously doing so with impunity? It's a pretty terrible look for whatever's left of this community.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Spidey » Mon May 01, 2017 7:43 pm

I guess closing and deleting his threads along with a heaping helping of name calling just isn't enough.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Ferno » Mon May 01, 2017 8:24 pm

Top Gun wrote:
Vander wrote:I think there is a legitimate concern, at least if one is concerned with the rules of competitive weight lifting. (which I am not) I liken it a bit to that amputee runner with the blades.
Of course there are legitimate concerns and no easy answers to them, but simplifying them down to an ignorant fear of what's different a la the OP is the most nonconstructive way on the planet of resolving them.

And to our lovely moderating staff, your enthusiasm is commendable, but at what point do we maybe give any consideration to the random passer-by who happens to be Muslim or trans or whichever other group TB's currently shitting on and sees him continuously doing so with impunity? It's a pretty terrible look for whatever's left of this community.
I would say permaban, but the last time he was kicked; all he learned was: 'don't post graphic photos'.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Top Gun » Mon May 01, 2017 8:25 pm

Look down the folder index right now. He's made somewhere around 2/3 of the threads on the first page. And out of those, there's what, a single one that's locked? Hardly a rejection of bad-faith discussion.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Spidey » Mon May 01, 2017 8:58 pm

I know of at least 2 that were deleted in the last week or so….

But the insults are more powerful.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Jeff250 » Tue May 02, 2017 9:10 am

Spidey wrote:Well if you took some kind of height enhancing drugs…instead of it being completely natural…

If you were born with your advantage, or worked real hard on it...I don't see a problem...that's what competition is all about.
I agree, but in this case the drugs that she takes are performance inhibiting, not enhancing. I suppose the contentious point may be "born with your advantage," where you may try to argue that she was not born this way.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Tunnelcat » Tue May 02, 2017 2:33 pm

Top Gun wrote:
Vander wrote:I think there is a legitimate concern, at least if one is concerned with the rules of competitive weight lifting. (which I am not) I liken it a bit to that amputee runner with the blades.
Of course there are legitimate concerns and no easy answers to them, but simplifying them down to an ignorant fear of what's different a la the OP is the most nonconstructive way on the planet of resolving them.

And to our lovely moderating staff, your enthusiasm is commendable, but at what point do we maybe give any consideration to the random passer-by who happens to be Muslim or trans or whichever other group TB's currently shitting on and sees him continuously doing so with impunity? It's a pretty terrible look for whatever's left of this community.
Call NS out all you want. Debate him with counter facts and good arguments like a civilized person, even though that seems like an impossible and irritating task at times. Just don't throw a bunch of nasty insults just to make yourself feel good. That never solves the problem and it only causes everyone to devolve into a insulting screaming matches. Sometimes, albeit rarely, NS does start a thread that evolves into a coherent discussion. But NS has also had his share of trash posts deleted too, including entire threads. In fact, he probably holds the record for deleted threads. As for a permaban, that will be up to the admins. The mods are just referees. :wink:
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Ferno » Tue May 02, 2017 6:24 pm

Tunnelcat wrote:The mods are just referees. :wink:

Who are holding back.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by TigerRaptorFX » Tue May 02, 2017 7:05 pm

So Laurel Hubbard born a man now identifies as a women. But still has the body of a man with less testosterone and hasn't lost any muscle mass. :lol:
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Ferno » Tue May 02, 2017 10:20 pm

She's got a fair bit to go before she beats Zhou Lulu (187 kg clean & jerk)

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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by callmeslick » Wed May 03, 2017 7:51 am

for some reason, I actually re-pondered the entire premise from the initial post. I was a mediocre golfer amongst decent males growing up. Got the handicap to maybe 1, but mainly a 2 or 3 handicap at age 17. A sex change would have made me pretty competetive especially off the Ladies tees, in Women's golf. Not for one ★■◆● moment would I EVER consider transgendering, and if one is doing so for 'competitive spirit' that is a psychological issue I would presume ANY doctor treating her would grasp.

Now, the matters around fairness in competition, muscle mass, effect of hormonal treatments, etc, are ALL perfectly valid, what is ludicrous is that the gender switch was prompted by athletic competitiveness. That is, to be honest, a blatant insult to the intelligence of any it would be suggested to.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Tunnelcat » Wed May 03, 2017 2:35 pm

Ferno wrote:
Tunnelcat wrote:The mods are just referees. :wink:

Who are holding back.
We can't win for losing, can we? :P
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Jeff250 » Wed May 03, 2017 2:58 pm

Maybe it doesn't even make sense to have male versus female sports. If gender is on a spectrum, then how is it any different than height? Why not have an NBA for short people too?
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by callmeslick » Wed May 03, 2017 3:23 pm

Jeff250 wrote:Maybe it doesn't even make sense to have male versus female sports. If gender is on a spectrum, then how is it any different than height? Why not have an NBA for short people too?
frankly, at a professional level, I'd agree. In scholastic sports, participation and other factors in personal development are involved, so I can see the need for 'Womens' and 'Mens' sports divisions. With the advent of modern gender transformation medicine, with hormonal and other pharmacological assists, you get into the infrequent messy call. This is one of those. For the overall interest of folks who once were trapped in a body that didn't match their self identification, the tradeoff is worth it, I suspect.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Spidey » Wed May 03, 2017 3:58 pm

I don’t find the Op’s idea ludicrous, perhaps a little silly. If it were to be known that this person was competing as a man at one time, and was really frustrated with losing all of the time, or some such, that would lend much credibility to the idea.

I have heard of people doing much crazier stuff than that, but my first leaning is that the idea is just NS’s little personal spin on the issue.

Ok…now you get to insult my reasoning abilities, like always.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Ferno » Wed May 03, 2017 5:40 pm

Spidey wrote:I don’t find the Op’s idea ludicrous, perhaps a little silly. If it were to be known that this person was competing as a man at one time, and was really frustrated with losing all of the time, or some such, that would lend much credibility to the idea.

I have heard of people doing much crazier stuff than that, but my first leaning is that the idea is just NS’s little personal spin on the issue.

Ok…now you get to insult my reasoning abilities, like always.
Identifying as a different gender just to get a competitive advantage....? :huh:
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Spidey » Wed May 03, 2017 6:12 pm

Yea...like you've never heard anything more stupid.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Tunnelcat » Wed May 03, 2017 6:20 pm

I don't know. It's a lot of effort to change your gender and besides some of it is almost irreversible. If a person was a man and then changed into a woman just to compete in some sport, there are a few side effects during the process, like getting breasts, which leave scars if they were to be removed later on. Would that be worth it for just a couple of years of winning in some competition? And I don't know why a woman would change into a man for the same reason. The voice changes and hair growth would not be something they'd want permanently unless they wanted to actually live as man.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Spidey » Wed May 03, 2017 8:04 pm

Are there any laws regarding what kind of treatments must be undergone to declare yourself trans-gender?

Beyond that, I don’t really understand your argument, are you saying people don’t do extreme things?

Do you know students in Japan kill themselves because of getting bad grades or being bullied? And last time I checked…killing yourself is kinda un-reversible.

But again...JFTR…I am not saying that is what is going on here…I just don’t find the idea so far fetched, due to the number of stupid things people are known to do.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by callmeslick » Thu May 04, 2017 5:16 am

the process is FAR more than simply declaring oneself to be a certain gender.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Spidey » Thu May 04, 2017 7:41 am

Thank you for that very enlightening bit of the obvious.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by callmeslick » Thu May 04, 2017 10:11 am

what is sad is that reading a few posts here, I felt I needed to.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Tunnelcat » Thu May 04, 2017 12:41 pm

Spidey's right. There technically is no actual legal definition of a transgendered person that I could find online. Sure, you can find all sorts of laws prohibiting discrimination based on gender and gender identity, but we seem to have put the cart before the horse. The law itself doesn't have a set definition on the books and that's an issue that can hurt the whole transgender movement. For example, there's nothing stopping some man from dressing as a woman and sauntering into the woman's bathroom to get a peep show. Only if he's caught does it matter, because there ARE laws for that very issue, but it kind of late when someone's caught after the fact. This link below is clearly conservative, but it does make the point.

http://thefederalist.com/2016/04/14/tra ... -get-hurt/
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by callmeslick » Thu May 04, 2017 6:21 pm

no surprise, TC, being 'transgendered' is a rather new status. Since time immemorial, we always had ranges of gender behaviors with physical traits limited between essentially male and female archetypes at birth. Done. Some males cross-dressed, some born female passed as males in society. Then modern science and medicine obtained the technology to hormonally undo some of the physical aspects, and modern plastic surgery handles the rest, for a fair bit of cash. Those folks, and those alone, undergoing the pharmacological conversion therapy(with or without the reconstruction) are what are rightly referred to as 'transgendered' or transgender individuals. J Edgar Hoover was a cross-dresser. Bruce/Kaitlin Jenner is transgender.

Thus, with such a new concept, a lot of rules and definitions are yet to be set. Nothing shocking there.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Jeff250 » Thu May 04, 2017 7:29 pm

Tunnelcat wrote:For example, there's nothing stopping some man from dressing as a woman and sauntering into the woman's bathroom to get a peep show. Only if he's caught does it matter, because there ARE laws for that very issue, but it kind of late when someone's caught after the fact.
There's typically no law preventing a man from sauntering into the women's bathroom regardless though, regardless of how he dresses.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Top Gun » Thu May 04, 2017 10:40 pm

I've seen women sneak into the men's room all the time at big sporting/public events where there were insane lines. No one ever called the cops on them.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Ferno » Thu May 04, 2017 11:49 pm

Spidey wrote:Yea...like you've never heard anything more stupid.

because that would literally not happen.
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Re: Don't like just being a mediocre competitor?

Post by Tunnelcat » Fri May 05, 2017 10:14 am

Jeff250 wrote:
Tunnelcat wrote:For example, there's nothing stopping some man from dressing as a woman and sauntering into the woman's bathroom to get a peep show. Only if he's caught does it matter, because there ARE laws for that very issue, but it kind of late when someone's caught after the fact.
There's typically no law preventing a man from sauntering into the women's bathroom regardless though, regardless of how he dresses.
You're right on that count. It does depend if a man can actually pull off looking like a woman just to get away with being a pervert in a woman's bathroom. Most men usually look like a man wearing woman's clothes, like throwing a saddle on a dog and calling it a horse, so it usually doesn't work out and most women will complain about it to authorities. The tired old conservative saw about men in woman's bathrooms is really not an issue in real life. They usually get caught if they're that stupid and doing it for voyeuristic reasons. On the flip side, most transgendered men, or MTF's, go through the long process and effort to feminize themselves in appearance and mannerisms. It's not something done on a whim. If they've gone through all that trouble, they're very serious about their gender identity and probably have no more desire to look at a woman sexually than another straight woman, especially in a gross public bathroom. Right now, the bigger problem is men going around up-skirting women with cameras and in most places, even that act is not really illegal, except in some states.

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/re ... irting.htm
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