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Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:44 pm
by Spidey
If you ask for respect Avder, you should try showing some. (I thought the name change was due to something you couldn’t control, and still preferred Vader, sorry, but I don’t know why I’m apologizing to someone that just called me a jerk)

To the point of turning off people to the board, seems like a lot of people have very short memories…most all of the hostility and vitriol that caused actual damage to this community came out of the Multiplayer Forum, back when the game was still active.

E&C might be like the stinky old people you want to hide when your friends come over, but some cranky old men arguing about politics pales in comparison to the battles that occurred in other forums, that actually made people leave the community and never come back, and caused a myriad of different problems, and left many a feeling hurt.

I would start a list, but those events were so epic, I can’t really see a need.

So if you really wish to protect this community, you might want to start with that forum, because if the new game is popular, god forbid they have “newbie weapons” or “cheaters” because we might see déjà vu all over again.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:34 pm
by Avder
I don't see how I called you a jerk. The only person I've called a jerk in this thread is isaac for that lame image he posted as a weak dig against moderators.

And you certainly do have a point as far as the old multiplayer drama vs the current E&C drama. So what would you have done differently to help THAT drama, were you a mod back when that was all going on? (I genuinely have no recollection as to who has been a mod on what board that long ago).

Getting back to the original topic tho, I guess the only thing I'd like to add at this point is that I think there certainly needs to be at least some clarification of what the consequences, if any, will be for personal attacks and what steps will be taken to ensure a consistent level of moderation in the E&C, if they regrettably decide to keep that forum going.

The complaint that started this thread is because of inconsistencies in moderating and a lack of notification when mod actions are taken. If you either crack down on the personal insults or declare the E&C completely unmoderated except for a few concrete rules that are more or less black and white (like say: libel, pornography, illegal content that could get the DBB itself in trouble with the law, racial/ethnic/sexual-orientation slurs), you achieve the goal of making the moderating consistent.

As far as notifications for when mod actions are taken, well that's up to the moderators if they feel they want to tell you why your post was edited or deleted, unless there's like some sort of option that the forum software supports for letting the mod check a box that would send an automated alert to the user in question about a post getting deleted/edited and why. And generally if you really do want an actual answer on why something gets deleted, a polite PM to a mod usually works a lot better than an angry post on the open forums.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:00 pm
by Krom
Sometimes I find E&C amusing when I take a step back, but most of the time I'm just mildly annoyed by it.

Led by Will Robinson and woodchip a group of regulars endlessly argue against their idealized version of Democrats/Liberals which are so perfectly Evil that the Devil himself would blush at their exploits. While the other half of the regulars pretty much mirror the same behavior just aimed at the opposite but still impossibly perfect idealized target. Neither side hears the other, or really wants to either because that would get in the way of their perfect ideals. Which brings us to the annoying part: Flamewars and personal insults arguing over bullshit that is far and away too perfect to actually exist.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:16 pm
by Avder
Krom wrote:Sometimes I find E&C amusing when I take a step back, but most of the time I'm just mildly annoyed by it.

Led by Will Robinson and woodchip a group of regulars endlessly argue against their idealized version of Democrats/Liberals which are so perfectly Evil that the Devil himself would blush at their exploits. While the other half of the regulars pretty much mirror the same behavior just aimed at the opposite but still impossibly perfect idealized target. Neither side hears the other, or really wants to either because that would get in the way of their perfect ideals. Which brings us to the annoying part: Flamewars and personal insults arguing over bullshit that is far and away too perfect to actually exist.
That's basically why my stance is that either the moderation needs to be turned way the hell up in there or the E&C should simply be shut down. And since I kind of doubt anyone able to be impartial and discern between someone arguing a post and someone arguing a poster would actually want to make the time investment to clean up the E&C, best to just shut the whole thing down.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:38 pm
by Isaac
Avder wrote:That's basically why my stance is that either the moderation needs to be turned way the hell up in there or the E&C should simply be shut down.
That's hero talk, big man. Keeping everyone safe with your super powers. /s

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:39 pm
by Spidey
I don’t even see the point of picking on E&C, hell most of the really bad fights I have ever witnessed were in Multiplayer, at least E&C has a good reason for the fights, what is Multiplayer’s excuse?

When you post in E&C you know what to expect, but what I have seen happen to innocent people in Multiplayer, should shame anyone.

Well, anyway…I think I’m done here if nobody else cares enough to defend the forum.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:47 pm
by Isaac
Spidey wrote:I don’t even see the point of picking on E&C, hell most of the really bad fights I have ever witnessed were in Multiplayer, at least E&C has a good reason for the fights, what is Multiplayer’s excuse?

When you post in E&C you know what to expect, but what I have seen happen to innocent people in Multiplayer, should shame anyone.

Well, anyway…I think I’m done here if nobody else cares enough to defend the forum.
If someone were to make me the only mod in E&C, no one will ★■◆● with your posts ever again. A mod on the net removes spam and stays clear unless someone asks for help. Going "boo hoo people are being mean" shouldn't mean shit to a moderator.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:05 pm
by Lothar
Isaac wrote:A mod on the net removes spam and stays clear unless someone asks for help.
A mod on some sites on the net. This is not one of those sites. That shouldn't be so hard to understand.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:11 pm
by Isaac
Lothar wrote:
Isaac wrote:A mod on the net removes spam and stays clear unless someone asks for help.
A mod on some sites on the net. This is not one of those sites. That shouldn't be so hard to understand.
Trust me, it blows my mind why most threads get locked there. It's stupid. Sorry.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:18 pm
by Ferno
Isaac wrote:Going "boo hoo people are being mean" shouldn't mean shit to a moderator.
Issac, I'm sure that if you were on the receiving end of it or seen people close to you on the receiving end, your perspective would be different.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:57 pm
by Isaac
Ferno wrote:
Isaac wrote:Going "boo hoo people are being mean" shouldn't mean shit to a moderator.
Issac, I'm sure that if you were on the receiving end of it or seen people close to you on the receiving end, your perspective would be different.
Who isn't on the receiving end of it? If I'm fighting with someone the last thing I need is a loser pretending to be a superhero with mod tools to "save the day". What shitty mods don't realize is, the moment someone in an internet argument feels like they're talking to a wall, they move on.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:16 pm
by Ferno
Would you rather have a board with civil discussions, or would you rather have reddit?

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:06 pm
by Isaac
X has no correlation with Y.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:48 pm
by Avder
Isaac wrote:
Ferno wrote:
Isaac wrote:Going "boo hoo people are being mean" shouldn't mean shit to a moderator.
Issac, I'm sure that if you were on the receiving end of it or seen people close to you on the receiving end, your perspective would be different.
Who isn't on the receiving end of it? If I'm fighting with someone the last thing I need is a loser pretending to be a superhero with mod tools to "save the day". What shitty mods don't realize is, the moment someone in an internet argument feels like they're talking to a wall, they move on.
No, actually they don't. Most of the people on the internet, in my experience, aren't capable of comprehending that some people simply will not change stances. Whether that's from the fact that it's hard to convey tone over text or simply evidence of how were progressively insulating ourselves more and more from viewpoints we disagree with, I don't know. But a more accurate analogy would be that a lot of people change weapons when they feel they're not making headway. Out come the insults and flames and homosexual slurs and the overdramatized incredularity, etc.

And here is one good thing I will say about the people in E&C: they at least have some rudimentary respect for eachother. That's probably the only thing that seems to be keeping that hellhole from descending from the anarchy it is now into bedlam.

And since I am a moderator on a hockey discussion board, I will use some hockey terms to explain to you what moderators actually do.

We are not here to guide your discussion to the logical and pertinent.
We are not here to hold your hand.
We are not here to make sure you do not take offense to something.
We are not here to be your friend.

We ARE here to make sure things are kept under control such that no line brawls break out, or worse, the benches clear entirely. We call penalties and offsides and icings and we try to do it as fairly and impartially as possible.

We're not superheros. The vast majority of moderators are the reluctant members of your hockey team who stop playing the game and pick up the refs whistle because they know if the game doesn't have a damned ref if could get out of hand real ★■◆● fast.

If you want to make a moderators job easier, follow this one simple rule: argue the post, not the poster. If you disagree with someones idea, critique the idea. Say that idea is the dumbest piece of crap idea you've ever heard. Do NOT call the person who posted it the dumbest waste of dump that's ever graced the internet.

Basic. ★■◆●. Civility.

And before you go crying "free speech!" realize this: this is a private establishment. Free speech does not apply here. Free speech means the government can't come in and throw you in jail for expressing your opinions or spouting your pedantic bullcrap. If a moderator deletes your post or closes your thread, they are not infringing upon your right to free speech. They're telling you you've been a bit of a jerk and you should learn to follow the rules better.

Learn to articulate yourself better. You can blow one hell of a hole through someones argument without resorting to insulting their person. Once you nail down that skill you'll find that a lot more of your posts are surviving their encounters with moderators.

And show some bloody respect to your local mod staff. They're not paid jack and they have to put up with a bunch of people who often end up behaving like temper tantrum throwing babies. Much like how you're currently acting with regards to moderation, Issac. Be better than that.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:51 pm
by Ferno
Isaac wrote:X has no correlation with Y.
i'm comparing civility with anarchy. also, avder has it dead to rights. fighting gets you kicked out of the game. Or in the case of a bb, if a person fights with another member too many times, they get banned.

I know you're a smart guy Issac. I saw what you wrote in EnC. So I know you have the brainpower. What is being asked of you (and others) is basically to be a decent person. Would you throw a cheap shot at another person in front of your mother? I'd wager a 'no' on that one. Same concept applies here. Surely you can comprehend that.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:56 pm
by Isaac
Avder wrote:Blah blah blah blah
I don't know if you're talking to me or not, but I skipped the wall of text.
Ferno wrote:
Isaac wrote:X has no correlation with Y.
i'm comparing civility with anarchy.
Reddit is big with lots of communities. Some are crazy some aren't. If it was suppose to be clear that Reddit was anarchy, maybe just saying "anarchy" would have been more clear.
Ferno wrote: also, avder has it dead to rights.
I hate it when people are dead to their rights.
Ferno wrote: fighting gets you kicked out of the game. Or in the case of a bb, if a person fights with another member too many times, they get banned.

I know you're a smart guy Issac. I saw what you wrote in EnC. So I know you have the brainpower. What is being asked of you (and others) is basically to be a decent person. Would you throw a cheap shot at another person in front of your mother? I'd wager a 'no' on that one. Same concept applies here. Surely you can comprehend that.
But that's just it. People fighting isn't as bad as everyone is making it seem. As long as people aren't breaking the law, people on small forums should be able to say whatever they want.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:11 pm
by Lothar
Isaac wrote:But that's just it. People fighting isn't as bad as everyone is making it seem. As long as people aren't breaking the law, people on small forums should be able to say whatever they want.
On a forum where you pay the bills, you can set those rules.

On this forum, the owners and admins and donors who pay the bills have consistently held a different standard, wherein we at least fight clean -- about ideas rather than people. Yeah, sometimes the standards aren't quite the same in multi as in E&C, or from moderator to moderator, or year to year. But they're generally approximately that -- argue, but keep it friendly. Because that's what the people who pay the bills have decided they want here on their private property.

Likewise, you can argue all you want about whether cuss words are OK or not, but at my grandma's house, watch your language, because grandma makes the rules at grandma's house. You don't have to visit grandma's house if you don't like that rule.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:41 pm
by Isaac
Did you just throw a straw man argument at me? I think you missed my point. I'm not expecting you all to change.
Lothar wrote: Likewise, you can argue all you want about whether cuss words are OK or not, but at my grandma's house, watch your language, because grandma makes the rules at grandma's house. You don't have to visit grandma's house if you don't like that rule.
This argument again. Grandma's house is a physical place. This forum has magical tools that allow people to not read other people's comments. Heck, you can ignore certain threads or forums sections all together by not clicking on them. The grandma's house analogy makes no sense. It's stupid and I told you that the last time you brought it up and you brought it up again anyway.

Back to my actual point: good moderating means you stay out of the way unless there's spam. But I sure as hell can be critical of the reasoning behind locked posts in E&C.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:47 pm
by Krom
Isaac wrote:
Avder wrote:Blah blah blah blah
I don't know if you're talking to me or not, but I skipped the wall of text.
Image

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:01 pm
by Lothar
Isaac wrote:Grandma's house is a physical place. This forum has magical tools that allow people to not read other people's comments. Heck, you can ignore certain threads or forums sections all together by not clicking on them. The grandma's house analogy makes no sense. It's stupid and I told you that the last time
Interesting. So you could have chosen to not read my post, but instead you read it and complained about me posting it. Sounds like you could use a moderator's help :P

You "told" me the same thing the last time, and I disagreed with your reasoning the last time. I still disagree with your reasoning. Telling me my point is "stupid" doesn't really help you there.
Back to my actual point: good moderating means you stay out of the way unless there's spam.
We disagree on what "good moderating" means.

Moderating is about shaping the community. Just sitting back and only deleting spam means you get whatever the lowest common denominator of your community is. Active moderation means you can discourage the worst elements, and therefore push the community toward something better than their worst.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:59 pm
by Isaac
Lothar wrote:Moderating is about shaping the community. Just sitting back and only deleting spam means you get whatever the lowest common denominator of your community is.
The struggle is real. :roll:
Lothar wrote:Active moderation means you can discourage the worst elements, and therefore push the community toward something better than their worst.
If I post malicious code, that's bad. If I start linking torrents to illegal material, that's bad. Agreed. That stuff should never be allowed here.

On the other hand, people being vocal about issues with other users is completely fine. If you want to pretend it's not, as you said before, it's your right to prune as you wish with your mod tools. But be aware that you're pretending something bad is taking place.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:59 pm
by Ferno
Well if grandma's house isn't enough, think of being part of a bb as to holding down a job.

Both a bb and a job have rules; both written and unspoken. you get rewarded for abiding by the rules and doing your job by being paid, as you would be paid by following the rules and giving/receiving respect with a continuing membership at a bb.

Break the rules or not do your professional job properly and you get fired. And in the case of a bb, you break the rules or you don't do your social job by being disrespectful to your fellow members and you lose your membership via banning.

simple.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:01 pm
by Isaac
Krom wrote:
Isaac wrote:
Avder wrote:Blah blah blah blah
I don't know if you're talking to me or not, but I skipped the wall of text.
Image
I don't wanna!!! You ain't my real dad
Ferno wrote:And in the case of a bb, you break the rules or you don't do your social job by being disrespectful to your fellow members and you lose your membership via banning.

simple.
Well I can't disagree with that because it's correct, but it's crafted to be correct no matter how you cut it, so it’s not really arguing against my point: I’m NOT arguing that there’s no line. I’m arguing that you guys think the line is in on spot and I’m saying it’s in another.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:21 pm
by Avder
Isaac wrote:
Krom wrote:
Isaac wrote:
Avder wrote:Blah blah blah blah
I don't know if you're talking to me or not, but I skipped the wall of text.
Image
I don't wanna!!! You ain't my real dad
Ferno wrote:And in the case of a bb, you break the rules or you don't do your social job by being disrespectful to your fellow members and you lose your membership via banning.

simple.
Well I can't disagree with that because it's correct, but it's crafted to be correct no matter how you cut it, so it’s not really arguing against my point: I’m NOT arguing that there’s no line. I’m arguing that you guys think the line is in on spot and I’m saying it’s in another.
The simple fact, isaac, is that you don't get to decide where the line is. The DBB staff do. So it doesn't matter where you think the line is or where you want it to be. All that matters is where the DBB staff draws it.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:05 am
by Isaac
This is still too long.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:16 am
by Lothar
Isaac wrote:
Lothar wrote:Active moderation means you can discourage the worst elements, and therefore push the community toward something better than their worst.
people being vocal about issues with other users is completely fine
That depends on two things:

1) what you mean by "vocal"
2) what you ultimately want the mood/tone/ethos of this board to be

For the last 15+ years, this board has allowed people to be quite vocal, so long as they keep the attitudes in check. You can criticize others' ideas, politics, religious beliefs, whatever. We're pretty free about that -- as long as you can do it while focusing on the ideas and not being overly personal / intentionally hurtful.

The result of that was a very good several years, wherein this was the best forum I was aware of anywhere on the internet for political and religious discussion. It's kind of like... I don't like alley fights, and I don't like forcing people to pretend to like each other over tea. But when you have a competitive sport with fair rules and as-close-to-impartial-as-you-can-get referees and adequate safety, you can have intense battles that competitors return to over and over again. And when you have moderators who are willing to keep people in line -- not just in terms of spam or malicious code, but in terms of expressing themselves in a toxic manner -- that creates the same sort of fertile ground for competition.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:32 am
by Avder
Isaac wrote:This is still too long.
So instead of actually respond to any of my posts, you're just gonna pull out the old tl;dr gag?

What does that say about you, as a person, isaac?

You don't seem interested in any sort of actual discourse here. You seem like you wanna be the spoiled child who thinks he's entitled to whatever he wants and cries when he can't have it exactly his way.

Doesn't work that way.

So how about you stop acting like a total dick and actually respond to something in one of my posts?

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:25 pm
by Lothar
Avder wrote:actually respond to something in one of my posts?
In the interests of keeping this thread somewhat clean, I've deleted two not-actual responses to your posts. Further not-actual responses will meet the same fate.

[EDIT] I have deactivated Isaac's account. Someone please remind me to reactivate it in 24 hours.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:12 pm
by Pumo
I think 24 hours have passed already.
Would be a shame to not have the funny Isaac around here for much more time. :P

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:31 pm
by Lothar
It's been reactivated.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:23 pm
by Isaac
Muahha, I've returned and have learned nothing from the ban!

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:46 am
by Avder
Thats sad.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:32 am
by Isaac
Avder wrote:Thats sad.
Careful, that could be misconstrued as a non-responce.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:38 am
by Spidey
What was he supposed to learn…when you treat people like children, they will behave like adults?

Now go to your room.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:54 pm
by Krom
I don't care where he goes, as long as it isn't here for the next two weeks.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:12 pm
by Isaac
Again, learned nothing from the ban.

Krom wrote:I don't care where he goes, as long as it isn't here for the next two weeks.
Way to save the day. :lol:

Yeah, temp banning someone for giving opinions on techniques or policy is clearly warranted. Especially in the feedback section.


Hero mods save the day from from dangerous posts... /s



Seriously, though, lazy mods are the worst. If want to teach a lesson use words. If you want to be lazy, use a mod tool and reenforce my points.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:38 pm
by Lothar
Isaac wrote:If want to teach a lesson use words
Several of us used words, to which you responded "too long" or otherwise indicated that you had no intention of attempting to understand the content conveyed by our words.

If you choose not to participate according to the expected rules, but instead to attempt to provoke those who set DBB policy, we will use mod tools to remove you. Krom and I have both been around the block enough times not to lose any sleep over accusations that we're "proving your point".

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:57 pm
by Isaac
Hahah just because you made an argument and someone else doesn't agree doesn't mean a rule was broken. Just because someone won't read an angry wall of text, doesn't mean a rule was broken. But go ahead and keep pretending I've broken a rule here.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:51 pm
by Ferno
Isaac wrote:Hahah just because you made an argument and someone else doesn't agree doesn't mean a rule was broken. Just because someone won't read an angry wall of text, doesn't mean a rule was broken. But go ahead and keep pretending I've broken a rule here.
bye.

Re: Ninja MOD for the win?

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:20 am
by Isaac
Yeah, probably. But if me being rational gets me banned I can't feel bad.