That would be more than interesting. Last night, I got the USB.org's sample PID HID working (enumerates and I get sensible FFB data to the stick) with LUFA, but even with that HID, the OEMForceFeedback-registry key's values for Effects lack the binding to the X-Y-axis and I need to manually modify the entries (enable two bits in the Attributes-value that bind X and Y axis to the effect respectively) in order for the joystick to be considered as FFB device. I also need to figure out what response messages I need to give back to PC to certain FFB-commands the stick receives to give proper feedback on creating an effect.
It could be possible that the FFP2's HID and protocol might give some insight on the latter topic. Altho, I am afraid that FFP2 is actually working via MS's custom drivers for Sidewinders instead of using the standard PID HID-driver. Thus, its HID descriptor might not help that much.
On the other hand, if the standard PID approach doesn't work well, it might be possible (or even easier) to mimic FFP2 with the 3DPVert and use its drivers and protocol for FFP-adaptation. I understood that feature-wise, FFP2 and FFP are very similar (same buttons, axis and effects). Do you know if force feedback works also in 64-bit Windows 7 with FFP2 - meaning that the drivers are still maintained?
Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
I don't know for sure but I bet W7 still supports the FFP2. Give me a few days, I'll try to capture the FFP2s descriptors.
-
NamelessPFG
- DBB Cadet
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:18 pm
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
I own a SideWinder Force-Feedback 2 and can confirm that not only does it work on Vista/Win7 64-bit, but that force-feedback does indeed work in every game I know that has it, even with nothing more than the bare-bone drivers already present in Vista/Win7 64-bit. Good thing all of them allow in-game configuration of the FFB, too, because the drivers sure don't!
It also has a very tight centering force with practically no center play, but the centering forces are also gradual and ramp up more as you move away from center, unlike the Logitech WingMan Strike Force 3D I've tried. No wonder the SWFFB2 has the cult following that it does in the flight sim community over a decade after its release and discontinuation...it's not just a FFB stick, but a FFB stick with well-implemented forces.
However, low-level driver work and descriptor sniffing is beyond my league. I'll have to leave that to Grendel.
It also has a very tight centering force with practically no center play, but the centering forces are also gradual and ramp up more as you move away from center, unlike the Logitech WingMan Strike Force 3D I've tried. No wonder the SWFFB2 has the cult following that it does in the flight sim community over a decade after its release and discontinuation...it's not just a FFB stick, but a FFB stick with well-implemented forces.
However, low-level driver work and descriptor sniffing is beyond my league. I'll have to leave that to Grendel.
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
That's comforting to know, that the plan B of using FFP2's USB protocol is at least possible in Win7 64bit. Hopefully tho, we can get the PID driver would work for it. That way it would also allow extensions (like those extra sliders for e.g. elevator/rudder trims in IL2). FFP2's custom driver (if it uses one) might not allow for such extensions.
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Entertaining -- the FF2's report descriptor is 1343 bytes long 
. 3 Feature reports, 14 output reports, and 2 input reports. Here are the descriptors decoded by the analyzer software. I attached the trace -- download and remove the .txt extension then load into DataCenter (64 bit version).
Regular descriptors:
Here's the beast -- the Report Descriptor:
As a dump:
. 3 Feature reports, 14 output reports, and 2 input reports. Here are the descriptors decoded by the analyzer software. I attached the trace -- download and remove the .txt extension then load into DataCenter (64 bit version).Regular descriptors:
Code: Select all
Device Descriptor Radix:
bLength 18
bDescriptorType DEVICE (0x01)
bcdUSB 1.10 (0x0110)
bDeviceClass Defined in Interface (0x00)
bDeviceSubClass Defined in Interface (0x00)
bDeviceProtocol Defined in Interface (0x00)
bMaxPacketSize0 8
idVendor 0x045e
idProduct 0x001b
bcdDevice a.00 (0x0a00)
iManufacturer Not Requested (1)
iProduct SideWinder Force Feedback 2 Joystick (2)
iSerialNumber None (0)
bNumConfigurations 1
Configuration Descriptor Radix:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType CONFIGURATION (0x02)
wTotalLength 41
bNumInterfaces 1
bConfigurationValue 1
iConfiguration None (0)
bmAttributes.Reserved 0
bmAttributes.RemoteWakeup RemoteWakeup Supported (0b1)
bmAttributes.SelfPowered Bus Powered (0b0)
bMaxPower 100mA (0x32)
Interface Descriptor Radix:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType INTERFACE (0x04)
bInterfaceNumber 0
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 2
bInterfaceClass Human Interface Device (0x03)
bInterfaceSubClass None (0x00)
bInterfaceProtocol None (0x00)
iInterface None (0)
HID Descriptor Radix:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType HID (33)
bcdHID 1.00 (0x0100)
bCountryCode 0x00
bNumDescriptors 1
bDescriptorType REPORT (34)
wDescriptorLength 1343
Endpoint Descriptor Radix:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType ENDPOINT (0x05)
bEndpointAddress 1 IN (0b10000001)
bmAttributes.TransferType Interrupt (0b11)
wMaxPacketSize.PacketSize 64
wMaxPacketSize.Transactions One transaction per microframe if HS (0b00)
bInterval 1
Endpoint Descriptor Radix:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType ENDPOINT (0x05)
bEndpointAddress 2 OUT (0b00000010)
bmAttributes.TransferType Interrupt (0b11)
wMaxPacketSize.PacketSize 16
wMaxPacketSize.Transactions One transaction per microframe if HS (0b00)
bInterval 4Code: Select all
Get Report Descriptor
General Radix:
Timestamp 0:09.269.305.483
Duration 169.997.583 ms
Length 1343 Bytes
Report Descriptor Radix:
Usage Page Generic Desktop Controls (0x01)
Usage Joystick (0x04)
Collection Application (0x01)
Report ID 1
Usage Pointer (0x01)
Collection Physical (0x00)
Unit 0
Unit Exponent 0
Logical Minimum -512
Logical Maximum 511
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 1023
Report Count 1
Report Size 10
Usage X (0x30)
Input Data (0x02)
Report Size 6
Input Constant (0x01)
Usage Y (0x31)
Report Size 10
Input Data (0x02)
Report Size 6
Report Count 1
Input Constant (0x01)
Logical Minimum -32
Logical Maximum 31
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 63
Unit 20
Usage Rz (0x35)
Input Data (0x02)
Report Size 2
Input Constant (0x01)
Unit 0
End Collection
Report Size 7
Report Count 1
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 127
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 127
Usage Slider (0x36)
Input Data (0x02)
Report Size 1
Input Constant (0x01)
Usage Hat switch (0x39)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 7
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 315
Unit 20
Report Size 4
Report Count 1
Input Data (0x42)
Report Count 1
Input Constant (0x01)
Unit 0
Usage Page Button (0x09)
Usage Minimum Button 1 (primary/trigger) (0x01)
Usage Maximum Button 8 (0x08)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 1
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 1
Report Count 8
Report Size 1
Input Data (0x02)
Report Count 4
Report Size 8
Input Constant (0x01)
Usage Page PID Page (0x0f)
Usage Undefined (0x92)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 2
Usage Undefined (0x9f)
Usage Undefined (0xa0)
Usage Undefined (0xa4)
Usage Undefined (0xa5)
Usage Undefined (0xa6)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 1
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 1
Report Size 1
Report Count 5
Input Data (0x02)
Report Count 3
Input Constant (0x03)
Usage Undefined (0x94)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 1
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 1
Report Size 1
Report Count 1
Input Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 7
Report Count 1
Input Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage Undefined (0x21)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 1
Usage Undefined (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x25)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x26)
Usage Undefined (0x27)
Usage Undefined (0x30)
Usage Undefined (0x31)
Usage Undefined (0x32)
Usage Undefined (0x33)
Usage Undefined (0x34)
Usage Undefined (0x40)
Usage Undefined (0x41)
Usage Undefined (0x42)
Usage Undefined (0x43)
Usage Undefined (0x28)
Logical Maximum 12
Logical Minimum 1
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 12
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x00)
End Collection
Usage Undefined (0x50)
Usage Undefined (0x54)
Usage Undefined (0x51)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 32767
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 32767
Unit 4099
Unit Exponent -3
Report Size 16
Report Count 3
Output Data (0x02)
Unit Exponent 0
Unit 0
Usage Undefined (0x52)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x53)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 8
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 8
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x55)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Usage Page Generic Desktop Controls (0x01)
Usage X (0x30)
Usage Y (0x31)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 1
Report Size 1
Report Count 2
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage Page PID Page (0x0f)
Usage Undefined (0x56)
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Report Count 5
Output Constant (0x03)
Usage Undefined (0x57)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Usage Instance 1 (0x000a0001)
Usage Instance 2 (0x000a0002)
Unit 20
Unit Exponent -2
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 0
Unit 0
Report Size 8
Report Count 2
Output Data (0x02)
Unit Exponent 0
Unit 0
End Collection
Usage Page PID Page (0x0f)
Usage Undefined (0xa7)
Unit 4099
Unit Exponent -3
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 32767
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 32767
Report Size 16
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Unit 0
Unit Exponent 0
End Collection
Usage Page PID Page (0x0f)
Usage Undefined (0x5a)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 2
Usage Undefined (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x5b)
Usage Undefined (0x5d)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Count 2
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x5c)
Usage Undefined (0x5e)
Unit 4099
Unit Exponent -3
Logical Maximum 32767
Physical Maximum 32767
Report Size 16
Output Data (0x02)
Physical Maximum 0
Unit 0
Unit Exponent 0
End Collection
Usage Undefined (0x5f)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 3
Usage Undefined (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x23)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 1
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 1
Report Size 4
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x58)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Usage Instance 1 (0x000a0001)
Usage Instance 2 (0x000a0002)
Report Size 2
Report Count 2
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Logical Minimum -128
Logical Maximum 127
Physical Minimum -10000
Physical Maximum 10000
Usage Undefined (0x60)
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Physical Minimum -10000
Physical Maximum 10000
Usage Undefined (0x61)
Usage Undefined (0x62)
Report Count 2
Output Data (0x02)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 10000
Usage Undefined (0x63)
Usage Undefined (0x64)
Report Size 8
Report Count 2
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x65)
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage Undefined (0x6e)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 4
Usage Undefined (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x70)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x6f)
Logical Minimum -128
Logical Maximum 127
Physical Minimum -10000
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x71)
Unit 20
Unit Exponent -2
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 0
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x72)
Logical Maximum 32767
Physical Maximum 32767
Unit 4099
Unit Exponent -3
Report Size 16
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Unit 0
Unit Exponent 0
End Collection
Usage Undefined (0x73)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 5
Usage Undefined (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x70)
Logical Minimum -255
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum -10000
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Size 16
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage Undefined (0x74)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 6
Usage Undefined (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x75)
Usage Undefined (0x76)
Logical Minimum -128
Logical Maximum 127
Physical Minimum -10000
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Size 8
Report Count 2
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage Undefined (0x68)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 7
Usage Undefined (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x6c)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 10000
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Size 16
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x69)
Logical Minimum -127
Logical Maximum 127
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 255
Report Size 8
Report Count 12
Output Data (0x0102)
End Collection
Usage Undefined (0x66)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 8
Usage Page Generic Desktop Controls (0x01)
Usage X (0x30)
Usage Y (0x31)
Logical Minimum -127
Logical Maximum 127
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 255
Report Size 8
Report Count 2
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage Page PID Page (0x0f)
Usage Undefined (0x77)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 10
Usage Undefined (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x78)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x79)
Usage Undefined (0x7a)
Usage Undefined (0x7b)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 3
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x00)
End Collection
Usage Undefined (0x7c)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 255
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage Undefined (0x90)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 11
Usage Undefined (0x22)
Logical Maximum 40
Logical Minimum 1
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage Undefined (0x96)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 12
Usage Undefined (0x97)
Usage Undefined (0x98)
Usage Undefined (0x99)
Usage Undefined (0x9a)
Usage Undefined (0x9b)
Usage Undefined (0x9c)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 6
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x00)
End Collection
Usage Undefined (0x7d)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 13
Usage Undefined (0x7e)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage Undefined (0x6b)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 14
Usage Undefined (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x6d)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 255
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x51)
Unit 4099
Unit Exponent -3
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 32767
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 32767
Report Size 16
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Unit Exponent 0
Unit 0
End Collection
Usage Undefined (0xab)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 1
Usage Undefined (0x25)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x26)
Usage Undefined (0x27)
Usage Undefined (0x30)
Usage Undefined (0x31)
Usage Undefined (0x32)
Usage Undefined (0x33)
Usage Undefined (0x34)
Usage Undefined (0x40)
Usage Undefined (0x41)
Usage Undefined (0x42)
Usage Undefined (0x43)
Usage Undefined (0x28)
Logical Maximum 12
Logical Minimum 1
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 12
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Feature Data (0x00)
End Collection
Usage Page Generic Desktop Controls (0x01)
Usage Byte Count (0x3b)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 511
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 511
Report Size 10
Report Count 1
Feature Data (0x02)
Report Size 6
Feature Constant (0x01)
End Collection
Usage Page PID Page (0x0f)
Usage Undefined (0x89)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 2
Usage Undefined (0x22)
Logical Maximum 40
Logical Minimum 1
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Feature Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x8b)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x8c)
Usage Undefined (0x8d)
Usage Undefined (0x8e)
Logical Maximum 3
Logical Minimum 1
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 3
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Feature Data (0x00)
End Collection
Usage Undefined (0xac)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 0
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 0
Report Size 16
Report Count 1
Feature Data (0x00)
End Collection
Usage Undefined (0x7f)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 3
Usage Undefined (0x80)
Report Size 16
Report Count 1
Logical Minimum 0
Physical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 0
Physical Maximum 0
Feature Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0x83)
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Maximum 255
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Feature Data (0x02)
Usage Undefined (0xa9)
Usage Undefined (0xaa)
Report Size 1
Report Count 2
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 1
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 1
Feature Data (0x02)
Report Size 6
Report Count 1
Feature Constant (0x03)
End Collection
End Collection
Sample Input Report [1] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (10b) X
Byte 3.0 (10b) Y
Byte 5.0 (6b) Rz
Byte 6.0 (7b) Pointer
Byte 7.0 (4b) Hat switch
Byte 8.0 (1b) Button 1 (primary/trigger)
Byte 8.1 (1b) Button 2 (secondary)
Byte 8.2 (1b) Button 3 (tertiary)
Byte 8.3 (1b) Button 4
Byte 8.4 (1b) Button 5
Byte 8.5 (1b) Button 6
Byte 8.6 (1b) Button 7
Byte 8.7 (1b) Button 8
Sample Input Report [2] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (1b) Undefined
Byte 1.1 (1b) Undefined
Byte 1.2 (1b) Undefined
Byte 1.3 (1b) Undefined
Byte 1.4 (1b) Undefined
Byte 2.0 (1b) Undefined
Byte 2.1 (7b) Undefined
Sample Output Report [1] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 2.0 (8b) PID Page Array
Byte 3.0 (16b) Undefined
Byte 5.0 (16b) Undefined
Byte 7.0 (16b) Undefined
Byte 9.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 10.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 11.0 (1b) X
Byte 11.1 (1b) Y
Byte 11.2 (1b) Undefined
Byte 12.0 (8b) Instance 1
Byte 13.0 (8b) Instance 2
Byte 14.0 (16b) Undefined
Sample Output Report [2] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 2.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 3.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 4.0 (16b) Undefined
Byte 6.0 (16b) Undefined
Sample Output Report [3] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 2.0 (4b) Undefined
Byte 2.4 (2b) Instance 1
Byte 2.6 (2b) Instance 2
Byte 3.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 4.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 5.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 6.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 7.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 8.0 (8b) Undefined
Sample Output Report [4] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 2.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 3.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 4.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 5.0 (16b) Undefined
Sample Output Report [5] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 2.0 (16b) Undefined
Sample Output Report [6] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 2.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 3.0 (8b) Undefined
Sample Output Report [7] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 2.0 (16b) Undefined
Byte 4.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 5.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 6.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 7.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 8.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 9.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 10.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 11.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 12.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 13.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 14.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 15.0 (8b) Undefined
Sample Output Report [8] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (8b) X
Byte 2.0 (8b) Y
Sample Output Report [10] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 2.0 (8b) PID Page Array
Byte 3.0 (8b) Undefined
Sample Output Report [11] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (8b) Undefined
Sample Output Report [12] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (8b) PID Page Array
Sample Output Report [13] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (8b) Undefined
Sample Output Report [14] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 2.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 3.0 (16b) Undefined
Sample Feature Report [1] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (8b) PID Page Array
Byte 2.0 (10b) Reserved
Sample Feature Report [2] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 2.0 (8b) PID Page Array
Byte 3.0 (16b) PID Page Array
Sample Feature Report [3] Radix:
Byte 0.0 (8b) Report ID
Byte 1.0 (16b) Undefined
Byte 3.0 (8b) Undefined
Byte 4.0 (1b) Undefined
Byte 4.1 (1b) UndefinedCode: Select all
radix: hexadecimal
05 01 09 04 A1 01 85 01 09 01 A1 00 66 00 00 55
00 16 00 FE 26 FF 01 35 00 46 FF 03 95 01 75 0A
09 30 81 02 75 06 81 01 09 31 75 0A 81 02 75 06
95 01 81 01 15 E0 25 1F 35 00 45 3F 66 14 00 09
35 81 02 75 02 81 01 66 00 00 C0 75 07 95 01 15
00 25 7F 35 00 45 7F 09 36 81 02 75 01 81 01 09
39 15 00 25 07 35 00 46 3B 01 66 14 00 75 04 95
01 81 42 95 01 81 01 66 00 00 05 09 19 01 29 08
15 00 25 01 35 00 45 01 95 08 75 01 81 02 95 04
75 08 81 01 05 0F 09 92 A1 02 85 02 09 9F 09 A0
09 A4 09 A5 09 A6 15 00 25 01 35 00 45 01 75 01
95 05 81 02 95 03 81 03 09 94 15 00 25 01 35 00
45 01 75 01 95 01 81 02 09 22 15 01 25 28 35 01
45 28 75 07 95 01 81 02 C0 09 21 A1 02 85 01 09
22 15 01 25 28 35 01 45 28 75 08 95 01 91 02 09
25 A1 02 09 26 09 27 09 30 09 31 09 32 09 33 09
34 09 40 09 41 09 42 09 43 09 28 25 0C 15 01 35
01 45 0C 75 08 95 01 91 00 C0 09 50 09 54 09 51
15 00 26 FF 7F 35 00 46 FF 7F 66 03 10 55 FD 75
10 95 03 91 02 55 00 66 00 00 09 52 15 00 26 FF
00 35 00 46 10 27 75 08 95 01 91 02 09 53 15 01
25 08 35 01 45 08 75 08 95 01 91 02 09 55 A1 02
05 01 09 30 09 31 15 00 25 01 75 01 95 02 91 02
C0 05 0F 09 56 95 01 91 02 95 05 91 03 09 57 A1
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08 95 01 B1 02 09 A9 09 AA 75 01 95 02 15 00 25
01 35 00 45 01 B1 02 75 06 95 01 B1 03 C0 C0- Attachments
-
- FF2conct.tdc.txt
- Connecting the FF2 to a USB port captured. Remove the .txt extension.
- (26.69 KiB) Downloaded 9335 times
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Thanks!
Crivens! It really looks like it is using the PID driver in there instead of a custom one. At least all the PID-related report descriptors are there and looking very familiar. Compared to the USB.org's sample PID HID it is slightly larger (offers a couple of more effect types and some PID states etc.). I'll need to compare these two now and see what is wrong with the USB.org's sample as to why it is not automatically (without RegEdit-magic that is) recognized as a FFB device. On the other hand, the Sidewinder's seem to come with registry keys for FFB from the .inf-files so, in the end, it might be possible that this 3DPVert+FFB might need a simple .inf-file too to make it fully functional. Well have to see. It could still be a problem in descriptor I'm using or the answers I'm giving (which is none now) when the device is first plugged-in to PC and Windows starts to look drivers for it.
Indeed, as you noticed, these PID descriptors tend to get huge and I have only started to understand something on why much of the stuff is there (well, not really understand "why" but at least I can see how it brings more information about the effects protocol).
On the side note; I just got the 3DPVert ported to LUFA and have included a working "enable FFB mode" command there too at startup. I'm still sorting the code a little bit to isolate your original 3DPVert code since you are distributing it with a bit more restrictive license than what I have in store for the FFB code (going out in MIT license to make it simple). This first port however is strictly for FFP and Teensy 2 (I severely amputated it from many of the other parts) since the other sticks have no FFB and at this point I wanted to simplify the prototyping by having as little of moving parts as possible. I'll also have some extra inputs in it to allow additional buttons and potentiometers to be plugged in. It should be quite a simple matter to include the amputated parts back in once the whole thing works together. I'll upload it into the site in a day or two and we are finally approaching the position where I hoped to be in the very early stages of the project
Crivens! It really looks like it is using the PID driver in there instead of a custom one. At least all the PID-related report descriptors are there and looking very familiar. Compared to the USB.org's sample PID HID it is slightly larger (offers a couple of more effect types and some PID states etc.). I'll need to compare these two now and see what is wrong with the USB.org's sample as to why it is not automatically (without RegEdit-magic that is) recognized as a FFB device. On the other hand, the Sidewinder's seem to come with registry keys for FFB from the .inf-files so, in the end, it might be possible that this 3DPVert+FFB might need a simple .inf-file too to make it fully functional. Well have to see. It could still be a problem in descriptor I'm using or the answers I'm giving (which is none now) when the device is first plugged-in to PC and Windows starts to look drivers for it.
Indeed, as you noticed, these PID descriptors tend to get huge and I have only started to understand something on why much of the stuff is there (well, not really understand "why" but at least I can see how it brings more information about the effects protocol).
On the side note; I just got the 3DPVert ported to LUFA and have included a working "enable FFB mode" command there too at startup. I'm still sorting the code a little bit to isolate your original 3DPVert code since you are distributing it with a bit more restrictive license than what I have in store for the FFB code (going out in MIT license to make it simple). This first port however is strictly for FFP and Teensy 2 (I severely amputated it from many of the other parts) since the other sticks have no FFB and at this point I wanted to simplify the prototyping by having as little of moving parts as possible. I'll also have some extra inputs in it to allow additional buttons and potentiometers to be plugged in. It should be quite a simple matter to include the amputated parts back in once the whole thing works together. I'll upload it into the site in a day or two and we are finally approaching the position where I hoped to be in the very early stages of the project
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Here's the report descriptors with descriptive texts in place of the "undefined"s. Biggest differences seem to be in the memory management reports and effect indexing mechanism. FF2 also seems to support more force feedback features than FFP (e.g. non-zero phase in periodic effects and startup delay for an effect). So, Microsoft did some other under-the-hood improvements too to the FF2 than just the form factor and USB connectivity.
I would not be surprised to see that the Windows' PID driver is actually made for the FF2 features in mind and it might be required to adhere to that subset and ways of usages its descriptor has...
I would not be surprised to see that the Windows' PID driver is actually made for the FF2 features in mind and it might be required to adhere to that subset and ways of usages its descriptor has...
Code: Select all
Usage Page Generic Desktop Controls (0x01)
Usage Joystick (0x04)
Collection Application (0x01)
Report ID 1
Usage Pointer (0x01)
Collection Physical (0x00)
Unit 0
Unit Exponent 0
Logical Minimum -512
Logical Maximum 511
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 1023
Report Count 1
Report Size 10
Usage X (0x30)
Input Data (0x02)
Report Size 6
Input Constant (0x01)
Usage Y (0x31)
Report Size 10
Input Data (0x02)
Report Size 6
Report Count 1
Input Constant (0x01)
Logical Minimum -32
Logical Maximum 31
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 63
Unit 20
Usage Rz (0x35)
Input Data (0x02)
Report Size 2
Input Constant (0x01)
Unit 0
End Collection
Report Size 7
Report Count 1
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 127
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 127
Usage Slider (0x36)
Input Data (0x02)
Report Size 1
Input Constant (0x01)
Usage Hat switch (0x39)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 7
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 315
Unit 20
Report Size 4
Report Count 1
Input Data (0x42)
Report Count 1
Input Constant (0x01)
Unit 0
Usage Page Button (0x09)
Usage Minimum Button 1 (primary/trigger) (0x01)
Usage Maximum Button 8 (0x08)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 1
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 1
Report Count 8
Report Size 1
Input Data (0x02)
Report Count 4
Report Size 8
Input Constant (0x01)
----> Here's the FFB part of it all ---->
Usage Page PID Page (0x0f)
Usage PID State Report (0x92)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 2
Usage Device Paused (0x9f)
Usage Actuators Enabled (0xa0)
Usage Safety Switch (0xa4)
Usage Actuator Override Switch (0xa5)
Usage Actuator Power (0xa6)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 1
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 1
Report Size 1
Report Count 5
Input Data (0x02)
Report Count 3
Input Constant (0x03)
Usage Effect Playing (0x94)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 1
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 1
Report Size 1
Report Count 1
Input Data (0x02)
Usage Effect Block Index (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 7
Report Count 1
Input Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage Set Effect Report (0x21)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 1
Usage Effect Block Inde (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Effect Type (0x25)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Usage ET Constant Force (0x26)
Usage ET Ramp (0x27)
Usage ET Square (0x30)
Usage ET Sine (0x31)
Usage ET Triangle (0x32)
Usage ET Sawtooth Up (0x33)
Usage ET Sawtooth Down (0x34)
Usage ET Spring (0x40)
Usage ET Damper (0x41)
Usage ET Inertia (0x42)
Usage ET Friction (0x43)
Usage ET Custom Force Data (0x28)
Logical Maximum 12
Logical Minimum 1
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 12
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x00)
End Collection
Usage Duration (0x50)
Usage Trigger Repeat Interval (0x54)
Usage Sample Period (0x51)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 32767
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 32767
Unit 4099
Unit Exponent -3
Report Size 16
Report Count 3
Output Data (0x02)
Unit Exponent 0
Unit 0
Usage Gain (0x52)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Trigger Button (0x53)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 8
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 8
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Axes Enable (0x55)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Usage Page Generic Desktop Controls (0x01)
Usage X (0x30)
Usage Y (0x31)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 1
Report Size 1
Report Count 2
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage Page PID Page (0x0f)
Usage Direction Enable (0x56)
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Report Count 5
Output Constant (0x03)
Usage Direction (0x57)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Usage Instance 1 (0x000a0001)
Usage Instance 2 (0x000a0002)
Unit 20
Unit Exponent -2
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 0
Unit 0
Report Size 8
Report Count 2
Output Data (0x02)
Unit Exponent 0
Unit 0
End Collection
Usage Page PID Page (0x0f)
Usage Start Delay (0xa7)
Unit 4099
Unit Exponent -3
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 32767
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 32767
Report Size 16
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Unit 0
Unit Exponent 0
End Collection
Usage Page PID Page (0x0f)
Usage Set Envelope Report (0x5a)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 2
Usage Effect Block Inde (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Attack Level (0x5b)
Usage Fade Level (0x5d)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Count 2
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Attack Time (0x5c)
Usage Fade Time (0x5e)
Unit 4099
Unit Exponent -3
Logical Maximum 32767
Physical Maximum 32767
Report Size 16
Output Data (0x02)
Physical Maximum 0
Unit 0
Unit Exponent 0
End Collection
Usage Set Condition Report (0x5f)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 3
Usage Effect Block Index (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Parameter Block Offset (0x23)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 1
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 1
Report Size 4
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Type Specific Block Offset (0x58)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Usage Instance 1 (0x000a0001)
Usage Instance 2 (0x000a0002)
Report Size 2
Report Count 2
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Logical Minimum -128
Logical Maximum 127
Physical Minimum -10000
Physical Maximum 10000
Usage CP Offset (0x60)
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Physical Minimum -10000
Physical Maximum 10000
Usage Positive Coefficient (0x61)
Usage Negative Coefficient (0x62)
Report Count 2
Output Data (0x02)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 10000
Usage Positive Saturation (0x63)
Usage Negative Saturation (0x64)
Report Size 8
Report Count 2
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Dead Band (0x65)
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage Set Periodic Report (0x6e)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 4
Usage Effect Block Index (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Magnitude (0x70)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Offset (0x6f)
Logical Minimum -128
Logical Maximum 127
Physical Minimum -10000
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Phase (0x71)
Unit 20
Unit Exponent -2
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 0
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Period (0x72)
Logical Maximum 32767
Physical Maximum 32767
Unit 4099
Unit Exponent -3
Report Size 16
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Unit 0
Unit Exponent 0
End Collection
Usage Set Constant Force Report (0x73)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 5
Usage Effect Block Index (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Magnitude (0x70)
Logical Minimum -255
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum -10000
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Size 16
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage Set Ramp Force Report (0x74)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 6
Usage Effect Block Index (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Ramp Start (0x75)
Usage Ramp End (0x76)
Logical Minimum -128
Logical Maximum 127
Physical Minimum -10000
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Size 8
Report Count 2
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage Custom Force Data Report (0x68)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 7
Usage Effect Block Index (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Custom Force Data Offset (0x6c)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 10000
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Size 16
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Custom Force Data (0x69)
Logical Minimum -127
Logical Maximum 127
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 255
Report Size 8
Report Count 12
Output Data (0x0102)
End Collection
Usage Download Force Sample (0x66)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 8
Usage Page Generic Desktop Controls (0x01)
Usage X (0x30)
Usage Y (0x31)
Logical Minimum -127
Logical Maximum 127
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 255
Report Size 8
Report Count 2
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage Page PID Page (0x0f)
Usage Effect Operation Report (0x77)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 10
Usage Effect Block Index (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Effect Operation (0x78)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Usage Op Effect Start (0x79)
Usage Op Effect Start Solo (0x7a)
Usage Op Effect Stop (0x7b)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 3
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x00)
End Collection
Usage Loop Count (0x7c)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 255
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage PID Block Free Report (0x90)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 11
Usage Effect Block Index (0x22)
Logical Maximum 40
Logical Minimum 1
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage PID Device Control (0x96)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 12
Usage DC Enable Actuators (0x97)
Usage DC Disable Actuators (0x98)
Usage DC Stop All Effects (0x99)
Usage DC Device Reset (0x9a)
Usage DC Device Pause (0x9b)
Usage DC Device Continue (0x9c)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 6
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x00)
End Collection
Usage Device Gain Report (0x7d)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 13
Usage Device Gain (0x7e)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 10000
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
End Collection
Usage Set Custom Force Report (0x6b)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 14
Usage Effect Block Index (0x22)
Logical Minimum 1
Logical Maximum 40
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Sample Count (0x6d)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 255
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Usage Sample Period (0x51)
Unit 4099
Unit Exponent -3
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 32767
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 32767
Report Size 16
Report Count 1
Output Data (0x02)
Unit Exponent 0
Unit 0
End Collection
Usage Create New Effect Report (0xab)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 1
Usage Effect Type (0x25)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Usage ET Constant Force (0x26)
Usage ET Ramp (0x27)
Usage ET Square (0x30)
Usage ET Sine (0x31)
Usage ET Triangle (0x32)
Usage ET Sawtooth Up (0x33)
Usage ET Sawtooth Down (0x34)
Usage ET Spring (0x40)
Usage ET Damper (0x41)
Usage ET Inertia (0x42)
Usage ET Friction (0x43)
Usage ET Custom Force Data (0x28)
Logical Maximum 12
Logical Minimum 1
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 12
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Feature Data (0x00)
End Collection
Usage Page Generic Desktop Controls (0x01)
Usage Byte Count (0x3b)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 511
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 511
Report Size 10
Report Count 1
Feature Data (0x02)
Report Size 6
Feature Constant (0x01)
End Collection
Usage Page PID Page (0x0f)
Usage PID Block Load Report (0x89)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 2
Usage Effect Block Index (0x22)
Logical Maximum 40
Logical Minimum 1
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 40
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Feature Data (0x02)
Usage Block Load Status (0x8b)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Usage Block Load Success (0x8c)
Usage Block Load Full (0x8d)
Usage Block Load Error (0x8e)
Logical Maximum 3
Logical Minimum 1
Physical Minimum 1
Physical Maximum 3
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Feature Data (0x00)
End Collection
Usage RAM Pool Available (0xac)
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 0
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 0
Report Size 16
Report Count 1
Feature Data (0x00)
End Collection
Usage PID Pool Report (0x7f)
Collection Logical (0x02)
Report ID 3
Usage RAM Pool Size (0x80)
Report Size 16
Report Count 1
Logical Minimum 0
Physical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 0
Physical Maximum 0
Feature Data (0x02)
Usage Simultaneous Effects Max (0x83)
Logical Maximum 255
Physical Maximum 255
Report Size 8
Report Count 1
Feature Data (0x02)
Usage Device Managed Pool (0xa9)
Usage Shared Parameter Blocks (0xaa)
Report Size 1
Report Count 2
Logical Minimum 0
Logical Maximum 1
Physical Minimum 0
Physical Maximum 1
Feature Data (0x02)
Report Size 6
Report Count 1
Feature Constant (0x03)
End Collection
End Collection
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Finally, I managed to get some actual code published (please, notify me if the credits in the code are not as you would like them to be).
The project site now contains source code and hex file for the prototype version 1 in the downloads-section. It combines 3DPVert, LUFA (for USB comms) and code to enable FFP's "force feedback"-mode at startup. The HID descriptor has also a few additional controls for extra controls.
3DPVert code in this prototype has been stripped to only contain FFP-related code for simplicity.
To see the device as FFB device (e.g. in FEdit or a game) you need to do the registry magic mentioned in the project wiki-page. The code outputs all force feedback data it gets from the host to its USART TX port so it can be viewed with a device reading serial data.
The project site now contains source code and hex file for the prototype version 1 in the downloads-section. It combines 3DPVert, LUFA (for USB comms) and code to enable FFP's "force feedback"-mode at startup. The HID descriptor has also a few additional controls for extra controls.
3DPVert code in this prototype has been stripped to only contain FFP-related code for simplicity.
To see the device as FFB device (e.g. in FEdit or a game) you need to do the registry magic mentioned in the project wiki-page. The code outputs all force feedback data it gets from the host to its USART TX port so it can be viewed with a device reading serial data.
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
The thingy mostly works now.
The FF2 descriptor made the real difference in finding out what the WIndows PID driver really accepts. I've done full scale testing with FEdit, FConst and some preliminary testing with IL2 game too. With FEdit, I can play effects mostly fine. In IL2, there are some weird glitches and issues in the effects making it not really playable yet, but I consider this level of achievement as a proper proof of concept
Also, no need for that registry magic anymore - plug the joystick in and Windows will automatically generate correct OEM/FFB registry entries it likes to have. The decisive factor was the FF2 descriptors and that I needed to report a correct PID state reports when requested. None of which seem to be documented anywhere in sufficient detail - as you might guess. The FF2 descriptor also has several features not really supported by FFP (like phase or offset of periodic forces).
Creating effects, playing and stopping them work. The Windows USB-protocol implementation did (surprise surprise) not actually match the one described in USB.org's documents, but had some shortcuts that caused some pulling of hair (or what's left of it) at a time.
Almost all effect types now work when played using e.g. FEdit; constant effect, sine, triangle, square, spring, friction, inertia almost as much as FFP can support them. There were lots of nasty number format conversions and FFP limitations to stumble into. Ramps are not fully working yet - FFP also has very strict limits on what kind of ramps it actually can perform (only rampup from MIN to MAX or rampdown from MAX to MIN - nothing in between).
FFP can play up to 10 effects simultaneously even tho it can hold 40 definitions in its memory. Both properties are now taken into account. The adapter now needs to keep all 40 definitions in memory (taking a lot of RAM) since USB data updates are not always sent to MIDI immediately and need to be cached in the adapter. Some optimization could be done but ATmega32U4 can just take it all already now.
Most on-fly updates to already playing effects are also now working. E.g. changing direction or magnitude of a force already playing work. There are some limitations in FFP as it does allow changing e.g. magnitude of already playing constant force, but not periodic forces.
All that after tens of hours of tedious trial and error, half-educated guesses and even a few reboots due blue-screens in XP. Windows 7 64-bit works too.
FFB also seem to affect the joystick position reports by making some of the values jump erratically every now and then. I remember seeing some button line activity when playing effects - possibly it reports to PC whether an effect is playing or not or something like that. At the moment, I just ignore all that data, but it might be causing the erratic jumps (and random reported button clicks) in the input reports.
I suspect that there are also issues with the way I use LUFA-library too since I run into random issues if I get a large burst of output data going to the joystick in a short period of time. There seem to be also some timing issues with the MIDI-data to joystick. There are also some timing issues in replying to some USB-requests too quickly from the adapter to PC. I hope to get these solved by getting in touch with some LUFA-experts. It now looks very plausible to have a generic sample force feedback joystick project added to LUFA too.
I have already updated some of the MIDI-protocol documentation parts in the project Wiki and I'll post the new version of the code in the coming days too.
Thank you to all involved - especially Grendel and Ulao - for the help and support to get this thing already this far! I hope we can finalize it to be actually playable with any decent game.
BTW: I just got a second FFP with €10 to make sure the efforts are not wasted for me if one happens to break...
The FF2 descriptor made the real difference in finding out what the WIndows PID driver really accepts. I've done full scale testing with FEdit, FConst and some preliminary testing with IL2 game too. With FEdit, I can play effects mostly fine. In IL2, there are some weird glitches and issues in the effects making it not really playable yet, but I consider this level of achievement as a proper proof of concept
Also, no need for that registry magic anymore - plug the joystick in and Windows will automatically generate correct OEM/FFB registry entries it likes to have. The decisive factor was the FF2 descriptors and that I needed to report a correct PID state reports when requested. None of which seem to be documented anywhere in sufficient detail - as you might guess. The FF2 descriptor also has several features not really supported by FFP (like phase or offset of periodic forces).
Creating effects, playing and stopping them work. The Windows USB-protocol implementation did (surprise surprise) not actually match the one described in USB.org's documents, but had some shortcuts that caused some pulling of hair (or what's left of it) at a time.
Almost all effect types now work when played using e.g. FEdit; constant effect, sine, triangle, square, spring, friction, inertia almost as much as FFP can support them. There were lots of nasty number format conversions and FFP limitations to stumble into. Ramps are not fully working yet - FFP also has very strict limits on what kind of ramps it actually can perform (only rampup from MIN to MAX or rampdown from MAX to MIN - nothing in between).
FFP can play up to 10 effects simultaneously even tho it can hold 40 definitions in its memory. Both properties are now taken into account. The adapter now needs to keep all 40 definitions in memory (taking a lot of RAM) since USB data updates are not always sent to MIDI immediately and need to be cached in the adapter. Some optimization could be done but ATmega32U4 can just take it all already now.
Most on-fly updates to already playing effects are also now working. E.g. changing direction or magnitude of a force already playing work. There are some limitations in FFP as it does allow changing e.g. magnitude of already playing constant force, but not periodic forces.
All that after tens of hours of tedious trial and error, half-educated guesses and even a few reboots due blue-screens in XP. Windows 7 64-bit works too.
FFB also seem to affect the joystick position reports by making some of the values jump erratically every now and then. I remember seeing some button line activity when playing effects - possibly it reports to PC whether an effect is playing or not or something like that. At the moment, I just ignore all that data, but it might be causing the erratic jumps (and random reported button clicks) in the input reports.
I suspect that there are also issues with the way I use LUFA-library too since I run into random issues if I get a large burst of output data going to the joystick in a short period of time. There seem to be also some timing issues with the MIDI-data to joystick. There are also some timing issues in replying to some USB-requests too quickly from the adapter to PC. I hope to get these solved by getting in touch with some LUFA-experts. It now looks very plausible to have a generic sample force feedback joystick project added to LUFA too.
I have already updated some of the MIDI-protocol documentation parts in the project Wiki and I'll post the new version of the code in the coming days too.
Thank you to all involved - especially Grendel and Ulao - for the help and support to get this thing already this far! I hope we can finalize it to be actually playable with any decent game.
BTW: I just got a second FFP with €10 to make sure the efforts are not wasted for me if one happens to break...
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Congratulations, fantastic work ! Well done !
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
The complied hex-file for Teensy 2, source code and some updates to the wiki are now available at the project pages as version with label "proto 2".
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
With current development, if I turn off force feedback in the game, the FFP would work just like a FFP2 with force feedback turned off, right?
That alone is a great achievement.
That alone is a great achievement.
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Hi,
I am Merlin from the AmiBay forum. I want to say a massive thanks to all of the heroes in this thread, for working to get a USB adapter for my beloved Force Feedback Pro joysticks working. I still believe that these are the best joysticks ever made, bar none.
One question; I have the Sidewinder Force Feedback steering wheel too in my collection of Sidewinder controllers. Would it be possible to create a driver for this new adapter of yours for the steering wheel too? I would be prepared to help out if needed, just tell me what I need to do.
Thanks.
I am Merlin from the AmiBay forum. I want to say a massive thanks to all of the heroes in this thread, for working to get a USB adapter for my beloved Force Feedback Pro joysticks working. I still believe that these are the best joysticks ever made, bar none.
One question; I have the Sidewinder Force Feedback steering wheel too in my collection of Sidewinder controllers. Would it be possible to create a driver for this new adapter of yours for the steering wheel too? I would be prepared to help out if needed, just tell me what I need to do.
Thanks.
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Uh - the Real Life (tm) caught me a bit and is still keeping me in its grips for a while. Thus, the project has not really moved forward that much. I've used the adapter with FFB now for several hours tho when flying IL2 and even if its effects are not quite right yet (the MIDI-protocol has some number conversion quirks that I need to root out still - which is a tedious task to say the least) I have at least seen that it does not "crash" the joystick anymore even after couple of hours of use as some of the earlier versions did. This means that the principles and most of the details too in the USB and MIDI lines are pretty close what they should be.
Even if all of the effects work already now using FEdit, IL2 seem to use FFB a bit differently. It updates some of the effect parameters in ways that FEdit never does, which causes glitches and wrong effect gains/magnitudes in some of the effects. For example, the fluttering effect of turbulence under the wings of the airplane in IL2 is way too strong with the adapter now and the spring effect signifying the varying air pressure against the wing controls seem to throw the stick to wrong directions or at least too strongly at some directions.
Merlin, about your Sidewinder steering wheel. What you would need to get is to reverse engineer the protocol used in the game port to control the effects on the wheel. The USB side should be quite straight forward now that we got the Windows' FFB protocol there somewhat in order. I wonder if the wheel too is using some form of the MIDI protocol. Unfortunately, you need a working game port to see that. If you have a game port, you can dispatch the MIDI pin to a serial input (maybe with a small resistor in series for added safety) and read the MIDI data easily (while you play effects to it) since it is quite a basic serial protocol (31250 baud, 8N1).
You should also find out whether the wheel is using the analog inputs in the game port or that weird MS overdrive protocol to make it digital. I could imagine, the data is sent in analog format since a wheel and pedals could easily be modeled as a single analog joystick. Many pedals seem to model the break and gas pedals with a single axis. You can check this by seeing if the X and Y axis in the wheel's game port act like a joystick. There are numerous articles in the web about this. Some links about this are found also from the adapt-ffb-joy-project page discussed here.
Even if all of the effects work already now using FEdit, IL2 seem to use FFB a bit differently. It updates some of the effect parameters in ways that FEdit never does, which causes glitches and wrong effect gains/magnitudes in some of the effects. For example, the fluttering effect of turbulence under the wings of the airplane in IL2 is way too strong with the adapter now and the spring effect signifying the varying air pressure against the wing controls seem to throw the stick to wrong directions or at least too strongly at some directions.
Merlin, about your Sidewinder steering wheel. What you would need to get is to reverse engineer the protocol used in the game port to control the effects on the wheel. The USB side should be quite straight forward now that we got the Windows' FFB protocol there somewhat in order. I wonder if the wheel too is using some form of the MIDI protocol. Unfortunately, you need a working game port to see that. If you have a game port, you can dispatch the MIDI pin to a serial input (maybe with a small resistor in series for added safety) and read the MIDI data easily (while you play effects to it) since it is quite a basic serial protocol (31250 baud, 8N1).
You should also find out whether the wheel is using the analog inputs in the game port or that weird MS overdrive protocol to make it digital. I could imagine, the data is sent in analog format since a wheel and pedals could easily be modeled as a single analog joystick. Many pedals seem to model the break and gas pedals with a single axis. You can check this by seeing if the X and Y axis in the wheel's game port act like a joystick. There are numerous articles in the web about this. Some links about this are found also from the adapt-ffb-joy-project page discussed here.
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Cal, just wanted to say I'm very impressed by your work, and am looking forwards to trying it out. I have all the parts and a new Teensy 2.0 to try it out. However there's no apparent way to contact you through the google.code website. Just wanted to point that out as other people may have run into the project from other places on the web.
~Santiago
~Santiago
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Has anyone else got this working? I have the teensy wired up and it is working with the Grendel's code with an MS FFP, I trid loading adapt-ffb-joy-proto2.hex and nothing happens when I plug it in, just a blinking light. I tried moving D0->B0 D1->B1 D2->B2 D3->B3
But still just a blinking light. Were there any other wire changes other than that? I also suggest putting a link on the code website to link back here for more information.
Thanks for all the work, I'm looking forwards to having my FFP work completely again.
But still just a blinking light. Were there any other wire changes other than that? I also suggest putting a link on the code website to link back here for more information.
Thanks for all the work, I'm looking forwards to having my FFP work completely again.
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Besides moving Dx to Bx, you probably need to connect B0 to D0 as well. Looks like D3 is the MIDI output pin that needs to be wired to pin 12 or 15 on the D-SUB 15 connector (forgot which one of the two, probably 12...)
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Just wanted to say that I successfully got it working. The problem was that I was following the original diagram for Grendel's adapter and I forgot that the FFP doesn't have a pin 13. I had to connect to pin 11 instead. The joystick initialized just fine without pin 11 connected, making the diagnosis more difficult. However this had to be connected to get force feedback to work. Cal was kind enough to send me a basic wiring diagram
AVR---D15
--------------
B0+D0 --- 2
B1 --- 7
B2 --- 10
B3 --- 14
D3 --- (R220) --- 12
B4 --- (R2.2k) --- 11
B5 --- (R2.2k) --- 3
+5V --- 1
GND --- 4
Its currently working without the two capacitors. Were those capacitors needed to get the other Sidewinder models to work, or are they there to stay within protocol?
Anyways, I'm happy to announce I have my force feedback pro up and running like it was back in '97.
AVR---D15
--------------
B0+D0 --- 2
B1 --- 7
B2 --- 10
B3 --- 14
D3 --- (R220) --- 12
B4 --- (R2.2k) --- 11
B5 --- (R2.2k) --- 3
+5V --- 1
GND --- 4
Its currently working without the two capacitors. Were those capacitors needed to get the other Sidewinder models to work, or are they there to stay within protocol?
Anyways, I'm happy to announce I have my force feedback pro up and running like it was back in '97.
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Hi guys!
I can see that you had success with the MS FFB joysticks, really good work!
My question is: did anyone manage to convert the SW FFB precision wheel as well?
I have a gameport one.
Regards,
Niclas
I can see that you had success with the MS FFB joysticks, really good work!
My question is: did anyone manage to convert the SW FFB precision wheel as well?
I have a gameport one.
Regards,
Niclas
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
nic_swede: no, sorry.
HackNFly: the caps are neccessary to create the pulses the sticks require to detect an "event". If you leave them out the only capacitance in the sytem will be the wire (probably in the low pF range) and there's no telling how reliable this will work in the long run. I would suggest to put 1nF caps in.
HackNFly: the caps are neccessary to create the pulses the sticks require to detect an "event". If you leave them out the only capacitance in the sytem will be the wire (probably in the low pF range) and there's no telling how reliable this will work in the long run. I would suggest to put 1nF caps in.
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Thanks for the update, I'll put the caps back in later this weekend.
Just wanted to share the news. I'm sure this is the nostalgia you descent fans feel when playing. I just got Mechwarrior 3 working on my computer with my Sidewinder FFP with the original forces. Theres still some work being done on the firmware, but I swear this was just like it was15 years ago when I first got the stick. I'm really happy with it. I also have another force feedback joystick that is usb enabled, and it simply doesn't compare. Its hard to imagine there being a more comfortable joystick out there.
Thanks Cal and Grendel for all the hard work that made this possible.
Just wanted to share the news. I'm sure this is the nostalgia you descent fans feel when playing. I just got Mechwarrior 3 working on my computer with my Sidewinder FFP with the original forces. Theres still some work being done on the firmware, but I swear this was just like it was15 years ago when I first got the stick. I'm really happy with it. I also have another force feedback joystick that is usb enabled, and it simply doesn't compare. Its hard to imagine there being a more comfortable joystick out there.
Thanks Cal and Grendel for all the hard work that made this possible.
-
ffb.boy.30
- DBB Cadet
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 9:26 am
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Hi
I'm doing a FFB joystick and I've some question
I use a descriptor given on microchip forum like you I've 2 input report => 1:joystick data 2:PID info
My joystick work with the windows panel and the data seem to be ok with USBlyser.
But when I try to launch FFconst the software is blocked until I remove my card .
With USBlyser I've seen that an OUT request is done 0x0C 0x04 it is a reset.
What I've to do?
thanks
FFB.BOY.30
I'm doing a FFB joystick and I've some question
I use a descriptor given on microchip forum like you I've 2 input report => 1:joystick data 2:PID info
My joystick work with the windows panel and the data seem to be ok with USBlyser.
But when I try to launch FFconst the software is blocked until I remove my card .
With USBlyser I've seen that an OUT request is done 0x0C 0x04 it is a reset.
What I've to do?
thanks
FFB.BOY.30
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Thank you for your work on this.
I'm experiencing two issues with the program:
1) When i plug the stick in nothing happens (the center spring effect stays deactivated) but then when I "use" the Force Feedback (e.g. by launching fedit) the stick seems to come out of FFB Mode into "normal" mode with activated spring effect - so basically the modes are in reverse. Any idea on this?
2) the stick randomly reports very short button presses from the Buttons 5 to 9 and the little directional pad on the top every couple of seconds. (can be seen in the windows configurationn window) Is it possible that maybe I'm using the wrong recistors? Or any other idea where these could come from?
I'm experiencing two issues with the program:
1) When i plug the stick in nothing happens (the center spring effect stays deactivated) but then when I "use" the Force Feedback (e.g. by launching fedit) the stick seems to come out of FFB Mode into "normal" mode with activated spring effect - so basically the modes are in reverse. Any idea on this?
2) the stick randomly reports very short button presses from the Buttons 5 to 9 and the little directional pad on the top every couple of seconds. (can be seen in the windows configurationn window) Is it possible that maybe I'm using the wrong recistors? Or any other idea where these could come from?
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Very cool! I had been waiting for someone to implement HID-FF on the AVR, not being able to do it myself. Several people in the past seemed to have figured it out on PIC and kept the code to themselves 
After perusing the Google Code tree, I ran to my closet and pulled out the CH Force FX I have been wanting to convert to USB since I found it 3 years ago!
It is one of the very first consumer force feedback sticks, and uses I-Force API 1.0 over a serial cable for receiving force effects. MS licensed I-Force for their FF sticks (because of patents) but I do not know if they also licensed and used the same IForce protocol or stepper-controller implementation.
Looking at the I-Force API, I'm not sure if the direct-to-serial IForce protocol is the same as the MIDI streams sent to the MS FFP.
I'm thinking that to convert this stick to USB, i need make the following changes to the adapt-ffb-joy code:
[*] exchange the OverDrive controls with generic ADC I/O for internal connection to the stick's pots and buttons
[*] implement the differences between MS-FFP's and ForceFX's effect-set and I-Force encapsulation
I've got other AVR projects I need to complete first to try and build the required experience for me to pull that off, but please keep those kinds of changes in mind when/if you're going to restructure your code base to make it modular for other DIY FF stick conversions.
this is awesome stuff, thank you cal and Grendel!
After perusing the Google Code tree, I ran to my closet and pulled out the CH Force FX I have been wanting to convert to USB since I found it 3 years ago!
It is one of the very first consumer force feedback sticks, and uses I-Force API 1.0 over a serial cable for receiving force effects. MS licensed I-Force for their FF sticks (because of patents) but I do not know if they also licensed and used the same IForce protocol or stepper-controller implementation.
Looking at the I-Force API, I'm not sure if the direct-to-serial IForce protocol is the same as the MIDI streams sent to the MS FFP.
I'm thinking that to convert this stick to USB, i need make the following changes to the adapt-ffb-joy code:
[*] exchange the OverDrive controls with generic ADC I/O for internal connection to the stick's pots and buttons
[*] implement the differences between MS-FFP's and ForceFX's effect-set and I-Force encapsulation
I've got other AVR projects I need to complete first to try and build the required experience for me to pull that off, but please keep those kinds of changes in mind when/if you're going to restructure your code base to make it modular for other DIY FF stick conversions.
this is awesome stuff, thank you cal and Grendel!
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Back from dormancy - again...
The adapt-ffb-joy-project pages in Google Code contains a greatly improved version of the adapter code for AVR since version "proto2". Check the revision "r54" for the latest hex-file and source. It fixes the random button reports kbh01 mentioned about. It also fixes stuttering of e.g. a game application caused by the adapter (funny that a joystick may cause Windows app to hang for hundreds of milliseconds) and most of the issues with periodic effects. The random button presses were caused by spending too much time handling ADC-interrupts and the stutters were caused by debug logging slowing down the responsiveness to USB-events - and a undocumented quirk in Windows' USB PID driver (what a surprise indeed
) that needed a workaround.
I now also added some documentation about the wiring to the pages. A proper circuit diagram is still missing, but you should get the picture. The wiring posted by HackNFly is what should work. I've extensively play tested the adapter with IL2 game and the latest version shows no issues.
As for the lack of center spring when when joystick initially comes online - yes, it does that. I didn't dig deeper into it, but I think it is the initalization sequence I make (I sniffed out the MIDI-sequence from an actual game port version and used it). Anyway, the current situation helps me to see if the stick initialization to FFB-mode really worked or not when plugging it in. And when I launch FEdit or a game, it works as expected i.e. the auto-center-spring is diabled. So the issue is not having the modes reversed, but that the initial default mode is auto-center-disabled instead of how it works when FFP is connected to a real game port. You get the auto-center-spring on if you switch to and away from any application using FFB. I need to consider to change this in future - I think this is an easy one to change. Good input!
About the caps and FFP - use them if needed. My setup did not work if I put the caps in place, so I'm running without them fine. I have two FFP sticks and both behave the same. There might be differences on inherent capacitances in FFP itself compared to e.g. 3DPro. But anyway, take the pragmatic approach and use whatever works - but just be aware that you might need them or need to avoid them
To ffb.boy.30: FFConst has trouble with adapt-ffb-joy too, but in the form that FFConst refuses to recognize the stick as FFB device at all. There is something different that FFConst expects than FEdit or any of the games tried do. FEdit and the games work. The adapt-ffb-joy-project also has a C#-source code submitted by saldsj3 that you can use to test the effects too. He's made serious testing on the adapt-ffb-joy and helped to iron out several issues there.
To joeykork: I noticed too that all of the people claiming to have nailed the HID/PID FFB never posted any code out (except for a couple that implemented only a simple vibrate-effect on e.g. XBox-controller or some Logitech mouse). Didn't help me or anyone else that they only claimed to make it work but never shared the results. This was the reason I decided to go public with all the info and code I made.
And you are right, it is likely that the serial IForce and MIDI-protocols differs quite a bit on certain level. But I would not expect too much differences in the deeper content since there are certain things you need to send for FFB. Thus, it should be quite doable as soon as you figure out the serial on-the-wire-protocol.
And this the kind of project is exactly what was my secondary goal on making the FFB for FFP. And now that there are only minor issues in the FFP-support, I'm very tempted to refactor the code a bit more modular. The current structure already separates the conversion of FFB-signaling from USB to joystick into separate file and set of functions (ffb.c, ffb.h). Reading the joystick's positinal data tho is more integrated into the main functions/files and could be more seprated. Basically, you just remove the 3DPro*-files, modify the input report construction and rewrite the ffb.c - just like that Let me know when you get to do the first run on the subject!
As for someone asking on contacting me, send me a message here or pick on tloimu at the G...
It sure is nice to see some interest on the force feedback topic.
BTW: I made the adapt-ffb-joy a composite USB device so that it now has USB serial device too for debugging and configuration. This part is quite preliminary still but already now you can enable/disable effects using a regular terminal application on the joystick. The project pages have some plans for this written out, but any further ideas on how it could be used would be welcome.
The adapt-ffb-joy-project pages in Google Code contains a greatly improved version of the adapter code for AVR since version "proto2". Check the revision "r54" for the latest hex-file and source. It fixes the random button reports kbh01 mentioned about. It also fixes stuttering of e.g. a game application caused by the adapter (funny that a joystick may cause Windows app to hang for hundreds of milliseconds) and most of the issues with periodic effects. The random button presses were caused by spending too much time handling ADC-interrupts and the stutters were caused by debug logging slowing down the responsiveness to USB-events - and a undocumented quirk in Windows' USB PID driver (what a surprise indeed
) that needed a workaround.I now also added some documentation about the wiring to the pages. A proper circuit diagram is still missing, but you should get the picture. The wiring posted by HackNFly is what should work. I've extensively play tested the adapter with IL2 game and the latest version shows no issues.
As for the lack of center spring when when joystick initially comes online - yes, it does that. I didn't dig deeper into it, but I think it is the initalization sequence I make (I sniffed out the MIDI-sequence from an actual game port version and used it). Anyway, the current situation helps me to see if the stick initialization to FFB-mode really worked or not when plugging it in. And when I launch FEdit or a game, it works as expected i.e. the auto-center-spring is diabled. So the issue is not having the modes reversed, but that the initial default mode is auto-center-disabled instead of how it works when FFP is connected to a real game port. You get the auto-center-spring on if you switch to and away from any application using FFB. I need to consider to change this in future - I think this is an easy one to change. Good input!
About the caps and FFP - use them if needed. My setup did not work if I put the caps in place, so I'm running without them fine. I have two FFP sticks and both behave the same. There might be differences on inherent capacitances in FFP itself compared to e.g. 3DPro. But anyway, take the pragmatic approach and use whatever works - but just be aware that you might need them or need to avoid them
To ffb.boy.30: FFConst has trouble with adapt-ffb-joy too, but in the form that FFConst refuses to recognize the stick as FFB device at all. There is something different that FFConst expects than FEdit or any of the games tried do. FEdit and the games work. The adapt-ffb-joy-project also has a C#-source code submitted by saldsj3 that you can use to test the effects too. He's made serious testing on the adapt-ffb-joy and helped to iron out several issues there.
To joeykork: I noticed too that all of the people claiming to have nailed the HID/PID FFB never posted any code out (except for a couple that implemented only a simple vibrate-effect on e.g. XBox-controller or some Logitech mouse). Didn't help me or anyone else that they only claimed to make it work but never shared the results. This was the reason I decided to go public with all the info and code I made.
And you are right, it is likely that the serial IForce and MIDI-protocols differs quite a bit on certain level. But I would not expect too much differences in the deeper content since there are certain things you need to send for FFB. Thus, it should be quite doable as soon as you figure out the serial on-the-wire-protocol.
And this the kind of project is exactly what was my secondary goal on making the FFB for FFP. And now that there are only minor issues in the FFP-support, I'm very tempted to refactor the code a bit more modular. The current structure already separates the conversion of FFB-signaling from USB to joystick into separate file and set of functions (ffb.c, ffb.h). Reading the joystick's positinal data tho is more integrated into the main functions/files and could be more seprated. Basically, you just remove the 3DPro*-files, modify the input report construction and rewrite the ffb.c - just like that
Let me know when you get to do the first run on the subject!As for someone asking on contacting me, send me a message here or pick on tloimu at the G...
It sure is nice to see some interest on the force feedback topic.
BTW: I made the adapt-ffb-joy a composite USB device so that it now has USB serial device too for debugging and configuration. This part is quite preliminary still but already now you can enable/disable effects using a regular terminal application on the joystick. The project pages have some plans for this written out, but any further ideas on how it could be used would be welcome.
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
A short message just to say thanks ! I loved this joystick and you revival it
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
A quick question, since I'm running Teensy++2 (AT90USB1286 instead of ATMEGA32U4) do I need to compile my own HEX?
P.S. I've already tried the one on site, but I keep getting - "Unknown USB Device" errors.
Thanks.
P.S. I've already tried the one on site, but I keep getting - "Unknown USB Device" errors.
Thanks.
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
A bit of progress...
I've modified the makefile to compile for TEENSY++ 2 (at90usb1286) and it now compiles and loads.
When i'm connecting my ForceFeedbackPro, it is detected and all buttons/movements work (woohoo!).
But, I cannot get forcefeedback effects to run. (using either fedit.exe or ForceTest.exe).
Any ideas? Help? anyone?
I've modified the makefile to compile for TEENSY++ 2 (at90usb1286) and it now compiles and loads.
When i'm connecting my ForceFeedbackPro, it is detected and all buttons/movements work (woohoo!).
But, I cannot get forcefeedback effects to run. (using either fedit.exe or ForceTest.exe).
Any ideas? Help? anyone?
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Hi,
I tried to build a adapt-ffb-joy according to the doc on google code, unfortunately the device does not work perfectly - there seem to be some serious jitter on the different axes and it looks like some buttons are triggered randomly. Have anyone experienced the same? When I inserted the device for the first time Windows (7x64) found drivers for a HID-compliant game controller but complained about lacking drivers for LUFA Joystick wFFB could that have something to do with it? I rewired everything to make sure that wasn't the problem.
Thanks in advance,
Gez
I tried to build a adapt-ffb-joy according to the doc on google code, unfortunately the device does not work perfectly - there seem to be some serious jitter on the different axes and it looks like some buttons are triggered randomly. Have anyone experienced the same? When I inserted the device for the first time Windows (7x64) found drivers for a HID-compliant game controller but complained about lacking drivers for LUFA Joystick wFFB could that have something to do with it? I rewired everything to make sure that wasn't the problem.
Thanks in advance,
Gez
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Hi,
It's normal, but in peripherals and printers control pannel, you'll find your joystick
Cu
It's normal, but in peripherals and printers control pannel, you'll find your joystick
Cu
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Yeah, I do see it there, so at least that's normal. It's the settings panel I reach through there where I noticed the flickering of the axes, random button triggering and non-functional tophat - I assume that isn't normal? 
Are you also running r54 on Teensy 2.0?
Gez
Are you also running r54 on Teensy 2.0?Gez
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Yep
I had the same problem, it was a bad contact on my midi connector.
Best regards
I had the same problem, it was a bad contact on my midi connector.
Best regards
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Hi to all,
I m new in this forum, i hear speaking about this project, and i want to try do to this.
I build the circuit, and i put inside teensy adaptffbjoy-r54.hex code.
If i connect all to my laptop (win 7 32bit) it work fine (just x and y axes inverted ... if i move my ffb to right the mouse move in left direction and the same if i move uo the mouse goes down).
if i connenct to my desktop (win 7 64 bit ultimate) i see in the devices Lufa Joystick wFFB with yellow"!"
(the same in windows 32 bit) but the joystick don t work... no mouse moviment and no force feedback.
I try with adapt-ffb-joy-proto1 and adapt-ffb-joy-proto2 code but no change.
Can someone hlp to me?
Thank you
Best regards
Emiliano
Sorry for my english
I m new in this forum, i hear speaking about this project, and i want to try do to this.
I build the circuit, and i put inside teensy adaptffbjoy-r54.hex code.
If i connect all to my laptop (win 7 32bit) it work fine (just x and y axes inverted ... if i move my ffb to right the mouse move in left direction and the same if i move uo the mouse goes down).
if i connenct to my desktop (win 7 64 bit ultimate) i see in the devices Lufa Joystick wFFB with yellow"!"
(the same in windows 32 bit) but the joystick don t work... no mouse moviment and no force feedback.
I try with adapt-ffb-joy-proto1 and adapt-ffb-joy-proto2 code but no change.
Can someone hlp to me?
Thank you
Best regards
Emiliano
Sorry for my english
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Overkill211
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- Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:09 pm
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
For those interested, I've whipped up a PCB adapter board to plug the pin-type Teensy 2.0 board into.
Just something I really wanted to try building. I've missed my FFPro, ever since I "upgraded" to the FF2. The newer stick just never felt as well laid-out as the original. Some games really needed that 9th button, too.
Built 99% to the published circuit diagram, with 1 extra connection... I hope to make it compatible with all the MS overdrive sticks, code-wise. I'll probably have to get past the "Hello World" tutorial, though.
Might save you some assembly headaches. I've tested all 5 that I have assembled (made 6, but one's mine, naturally) with my FFPro... all working.
Contact me if you're interested.
Just something I really wanted to try building. I've missed my FFPro, ever since I "upgraded" to the FF2. The newer stick just never felt as well laid-out as the original. Some games really needed that 9th button, too.
Built 99% to the published circuit diagram, with 1 extra connection... I hope to make it compatible with all the MS overdrive sticks, code-wise. I'll probably have to get past the "Hello World" tutorial, though.
Might save you some assembly headaches. I've tested all 5 that I have assembled (made 6, but one's mine, naturally) with my FFPro... all working.
Contact me if you're interested.
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Why have you got 4 resistors and 3 capacitors ?
On http://adapt-ffb-joy.googlecode.com/fil ... ircuit.png we have only 3/2 oO
On http://adapt-ffb-joy.googlecode.com/fil ... ircuit.png we have only 3/2 oO
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Overkill211
- DBB Cadet
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:09 pm
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
I added those to re-connect pin 13 on the DB-15 connector. These are connected to B6 on the Teensy. It has no effect on current operation, but I figured that if someone changed a bit of code, the adapter could support the non-FFB Sidewinder sticks that use Pin 13, instead of 11. If not, oh well... an additional few cents in components.
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
does this one fit into a box like the 3dpvert?
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Overkill211
- DBB Cadet
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:09 pm
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
If you can find a small enough box to accommodate it, and don't mind that the mini-usb will be recessed, then probably.
I didn't really design for a box... sorry. Works perfectly on a slot-mount plate, or mounted directly to a case wall. I plan on case-mount, myself.
I didn't really design for a box... sorry. Works perfectly on a slot-mount plate, or mounted directly to a case wall. I plan on case-mount, myself.
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
Hi,
I've been reading this post , I've tried the descriptor given below it seem to work like a charm in W7 64bits.
I can receive som FFB effects on my device
I've just a problem with the RAM function calculate . how it works ? is someone look at the PID description o fthe USB ?
Thanks
I've been reading this post , I've tried the descriptor given below it seem to work like a charm in W7 64bits.
I can receive som FFB effects on my device
I've just a problem with the RAM function calculate . how it works ? is someone look at the PID description o fthe USB ?
Thanks
-
Overkill211
- DBB Cadet
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:09 pm
Re: Reverse Engineering the Force Feedback Pro
First board is safely in it's new home in the Netherlands. Just 4 left, now.