Muslims

[dissent]

Well, if some conspiracy theories (see all the links in the article) are to be believed, then this cartoon-gate is being manufactured and fomented by some Islamic clerics. The cartoons originally appeared in the Danish paper months ago. Appatrently some of the cartoons now being circulated in the Islamic world are not even ones that were printed in the Danish or Norwegian papers. Some more blog input can be found here.

[El Ka Bong]

Yes, CBC radio reported the history of this case, dating back to September 2005. Their acts are fake provocation in the Holy Sheeps name of Islam ..?! WTF !?

This kind of activity by the Imaams and their 'followers' (which IMO includes so called \"moderates\" who follow their doctrine; the sheep), expulses one from our modern species' future. It's just a matter of time for their self-destruct program to complete it self. They will blow themselves up if 'someone else' doesn't, soon enough, as time spirals on.

Go an look at that picture of the planet posted a ways back; who of 'us' are going to keep that place alive ..? These hollow, deceitful and unilluminated Imaams ?! Their maniacal or moderate followers ?!

It makes me shudder realizing at how free I have been born. All of us must realize this !? We should thank our lucky fate to be born FREE ! And I am awed by how free I am to experience and believe in something, anything, even a 'future' without someone elses doctrine or script to tell me what it is.

... the plain mass-retardedness of that kind of 'culture' is hard not to get riled by... and it does come in many forms, not just from the Bomb-for-a-turbam type... Argh ! ...

(i'm going to go walk on the beach at sunset now... )

[Bet51987]

At the same time, I respect religion for all the things it has done to help improve people's lives. What I don't like is when religion gets to the point where it causes people to hurt or kill other people.

Very nicely said. Although I'm an atheist I believe that.

Bettina

[Top Wop]

[roid]

lol topwop. O RLY?

i'll run the numbers. i don't really care for the definition of true Islam - let the Islamists figure that one out.

Roid is more interested in whats inside peoples heads than whats inside "holy" books? Wow! We never would have guessed!

heh, come on man what i ment was that this discussion is not about a book, it's about a people.
It seems the Quran can be interpreted to be a peaceful book, or a warlike book - depending on what verses you read. (arguably: the bible is ALSO open to interpretation)
The way that most Muslims don't want to kill me, tells me that it's either easier or more palatable to interpret it as a peaceful book. "Why" is unimportant to the core debate, because if we were to judge religions by segments of their holy books taken outof context - i doubt christianity would survive either.

[hypothetical]
Even if the Quran can be proven to be a warlike book, then why are the majority of Muslims non-militant? We're ultimately judging a people here, not a book itself.
If in some absolute way it can be proven that the Quran is a warlike dangerous book, all it would prove is that the majority of Muslims are faux Muslims. And if that's the case then i like faux Muslims . Still these "faux muslims" would not consider themselves to be "faux muslims", they would consider themselves to be proper muslims - just like all christians consider themselves to be proper christians. Even the "faux muslims" would not like to be told that Islam is dangerous and evil - as they consider themselves to be Muslims (not faux).
[/hypothetical]

[Shoku]

Can you answer those questions?

Yes I can. And I will.

1. I am curently working on a syllibus for a new class I am teaching
2. I am involved in troubleshooting a proprietary Data Management program.
3. I also must spend time working on an animated short.

So allow me a few days to gather the info into a properly arranged presentation. I have other priorities that demand the greater part of my attention right now.

[Top Wop]

Mohammed:

Koran 5:51
O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Koran 9:28-30
O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

============
-----vs-----
============

Jesus:

Luke 6:27-31
\"But if you are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you. Pray for the happiness of those who curse you. Pray for those who hurt you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn the other cheek. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also. Give what you have to anyone who asks you for it; and when things are taken away from you, don't try to get them back. Do for others as you would like them to do for you.\"

Yea, lots of interpretation to be done there...

[Duper]

Top, just out of curiousity, where did you get the Koran text? On line? There are lots of places you can read the bible online for free, i guess there are the same of the Koran?

[Kilarin]

Yea, lots of interpretation to be done there...

I'm scared to play this game. You see, I can come up with a list of Bible texts that sound nearly as horrific quoted out of context (actually, I can come up with worse). But I'm not certain anyone would actually benefit from such a list.

YES, I think Christianity is right and Islam wrong, but I've read the Bible through too many times to feel that quoting even a long list of violent sounding texts proves the message of a book is one of violence. Because the Bible has PLENTY of them.

Someone needs to have read and studied the entire book to draw an accurate conclusion, which I have never done with the Koran. I am ANXIOUSLY awaiting for Shoku to have the time to respond. I don't always agree with Shoku, but he always does his research well and deep. And well and deep is the ONLY way we Christians can approach this subject without running the risk of having the exact same technique thrown back in our faces in a spectacularly embarrassing manner.

Don't we have ANY moslems on this forum who would be willing to step forward and give us a solid defense of Islam? I, for one, would be VERY interested in their explanations.

[De Rigueur]

A difference between the Bible and the Quran is how long it took to produce. The Quran was written (or transcribed) by one person while the Bible was written by many people in various circumstances over a period of centuries. Presumably, Muslims believe that the message of the Quran was given 'once and for all'. Christians, however, believe that the New Testament supercedes the Old Testament (ie, the Jewish scriptures). This means that, with some exceptions listed in Acts 15, the commands of the Old Testament are not binding on Christians.

I think this is worth mentioning because the texts that Kilarin alludes to (\"I can come up with a list of Bible texts that sound nearly as horrific quoted out of context\") come primarily from the Old Testament. If those texts are a problem, they are a problem for the Jewish faith, not Christians.

[Top Wop]

Top, just out of curiousity, where did you get the Koran text? On line? There are lots of places you can read the bible online for free, i guess there are the same of the Koran?

http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html

Kilarian, give me a break. We aren't discussing horriffic-sounding quotes, of which im sure there are a few in the bible when taken out of context. The issue here is the actual text being said. Read it again. In the first line it says to not be friendly with Christians or Jews and if there is a fellow muslim who takes a Christian or Jew for a friend, then one should in a word disown said muslim. In the Christian text I outlined (and consistent with Church teachings) it actually teaches *SHOCK* tollerance! Wow, Christians, tollerant? Who woulda thunkit?

And just for good measure, here is a horrific-sounding quote:

Proverbs 25:21-22
"If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink; for thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee."

[Kilarin]

This means that, with some exceptions listed in Acts 15, the commands of the Old Testament are not binding on Christians.

Depending on how you mean "binding", I will have to disagree with you on that.

Mat 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Much Ceremonial law WAS done away with at the cross, because it pointed forward TO the cross. There can be no significance to continuing the sacrificial system after the Lamb of God has been sacrificed. But the moral law is still there, still the same, and still binding. Are we saved by the law? Absolutely not. It is what convicts us of sin. But then, this is nothing new, Abraham wasn't saved by the law either, he was saved by faith, same as you and I. Faith does not do away with the law. Rather it is only through faith and the resultant indwelling of Christ that we are enabled to keep the law. With no credit to ourselves, but all to the glory of God.

here is a horrific-sounding quote:
If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat;

And this is one of the problems. We haven't been given any of the POSTIVE quotes from the Quran to compare.

that Kilarin alludes to ("I can come up with a list of Bible texts that sound nearly as horrific quoted out of context") come primarily from the Old Testament

New testimate quotes taken out of context can be easily misinterpreted as well. Just to give two examples off of the top of my head:

Mat 10:34-37 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Rev 19:15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

These texts, taken out of context and in isolation like this, could easily be used to paint Christ as a violent fanatic bent on anarchy and world conquest.

Now let me clarify, I am with Lothar on this one. I strongly suspect that the Quran DOES promote violence. But it will take more than a selection of isolated texts to prove it to me. Even a LARGE selection. Because if I allow the Quran to be attacked with that method, then I have to allow the same kind of attacks upon the Bible.

The proper method of study, from ANY source is "precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little" And I simply haven't done ANY kind of study of the Quran, let alone an in-depth one.

[Shoku]

Just tried to post my answer to Lothar but got that darn debug warning again. I will try again later.

[Kilarin]

Looking forward to your post Shoku! (When you can finally get it past the bugs!)

In the meantime, I ran into an interesting Muslim point of view this morning. \"What would Muhammad do?\"

Unfortunantly, it doesn't give us much information directly from the Quran, just one example from the Life of Muhammad. So only really useful as showing that some Muslims recognize that this violence is wrong and don't believe that thier religion supports it.

[Shoku]

OK this is a test: this is the error message I keep getting!!!!
Could not insert new word matches

DEBUG MODE

SQL Error : The statement has been terminated.


Line : 251
File : functions_search.php

[Shoku]

My post is not that long so why can't I post it!!!!

[Kilarin]

I get a similiar error all the time. Although it seems to happen more often on medium to long length messages.

In my case, what seems to work is:

click submit
...long wait
get error
hit back button in browser.

click submit
...long wait
get error
hit back button in browser

and just keep repeating, after 3 or 4 tries (sometimes it takes more, sometimes less) it usually works.

[De Rigueur]

This means that, with some exceptions listed in Acts 15, the commands of the Old Testament are not binding on Christians.

Depending on how you mean "binding", I will have to disagree with you on that.

Mat 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Keep in mind that this passage was directed to Jewish people about the Jewish law. Jesus was commenting on the duration of the law, not on whom it applies to. The OT laws were given to the Jews and are for them IMO.

I hope you don't misunderstand me, I'm not advocating antinomianism. There are plenty of teachings in the NT that are binding on Christians. My point is that Christians are responsible for what's in the NT.

Much Ceremonial law WAS done away with at the cross, because it pointed forward TO the cross.

I think we can be more specific than this. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I think Acts 15 is very important. The apostles' decision was that the Gentile converts were not expected to follow any of the Mosaic law (with 4 exceptions.)

These texts, taken out of context and in isolation like this, could easily be used to paint Christ as a violent fanatic bent on anarchy and world conquest.

I could accept this claim if you changed 'easily' to 'possibly'. The NT quotes are not nearly as direct as what's in the OT, like "conquer that city and take no prisoners." It would take a lot of creativity and determination for someone to interpret even the apocalyptic passages as a justification for holy war.

[Shoku]

Are you saying your understanding of the Quran comes from reading it, then, and not from websites that list the quotes without context? And that you understand the Quran well enough to be reasonably sure of your interpretations?

Yes.

If so, please give me the following:
1) a rough 1-2 paragraph overview of the story of the whole book.

I assume from your question that you believe the Quran to be a book similar to the Old and New Testaments. It is not, although it does have similarity to Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, which are two “books” found in the Old Testament. So I can't give you an “overview “ of the “story,” but I can tell you what it contains, and the basic themes that it presents - but this may take more than two paragraphs.

The Quran is divided into 30 parts, called Juz in Arabic and Siparah in Persian. The whole of the Quran is also arranged in 114 Surahs (chapters) of various lengths.

Unlike conventional books, the Quran does not contain information, ideas and arguments about specific themes arranged in a literary order. What you find is something which does not conform to the standard concept of a “book.” It deals with moral creeds, gives moral instructions, lays down laws, invites people to Islam, admonishes the unbelievers, draws lessons from historical events, administers warnings, and gives glad tidings, and all of these are blended together. The same subject is repeated in different ways and one topic follows another without any apparent reason; the speaker, the addresses, and the direction of the address changes without any notice.

2) a list of major themes found throughout the whole book

The subject it deals with is mankind; it discusses those aspects of life that lead to either success or failure.

The topics of the Qur'an are three:

Tawheed: that there is only one God (Allah).
Risalah: That Allah has assigned Rasools (Prophets) to deliver His message.
Akhirah: that mankind is in a test here in this life and will be held accountable for all good or bad deeds on the Day of Judgement.

The central theme that runs throughout the Qur'an is the exposition of the Truth, and the invitation to the Right Way based on it. It declares that the Truth is the same one that was revealed by Allah to Adam, and to all the Prophets after him.

The aim and object of the revelations is to invite mankind to the Right Way, and to present clearly the Guidance which he has lost because of his immature and underdeveloped art of preserving the Divine Guidance through writing it down, prior to the advent of the Prophet Muhammad.

Muhammad Malik, translator of the Al-Qur'an says this about the book:

“It is a book that has been sent down to invite people to start a movement and to lead its followers and direct their activities towards the achievement of its mission. One has, therefore, to go to the battlefield of life to understand its real meaning. That's why a quiet and amiable person like the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had to come out of his seclusion, start the Islamic Movement and fight against the rebellious world. It was the Qur'an that urged him to declare war against every kind of falsehood and engage in conflict with the leaders of disbelief without any consideration of the consequences.” - English Translation of the Meaning of the Al-Qur'an, pg106.

3) a statement of the context of, say, the first 3 quotes you gave above. What individual story do the quotes take place in?

Surah 2: Al-Baqarah

Though it is a Madani Surah (revealed at Madinah), it follows a Makki Surah (revealed at Makkah) Al-Fatiha, which ended with the prayer: “Guide us to the Right Way.” This Surah begins with the answer to that prayer. The greater part of Al-Baqarah was revealed during the first two years of the Prophet's life at Madinah.

In brief this Surah criticizes the Jews for abandoning the true faith, and is an invitation for them to accept Divine Guidance. It also advises them that accepting the Guidance as revealed by the Prophet Muhammad is in their best interest. Along with these statements about the Jew there are about 25 other topics ranging from the creation of Adam and the moon (Allah was originally the pagan Arabic moon god), to general instructions and orders for true believers.

Surah 4: An-Nisa

This Surah is comprised of several discourses that were revealed on different occasions. Instructions about inheritance and the rights of orphans were revealed after the Battle of Uhud in which 70 Muslims were martyred. By the end of the 3rd year After Hijrah (A.H. - Islamic Calendar) a last warning to the Jews was given before the Jewish tribe of Banu Nadheer was expelled from Al-Madinah in A.H. 4. This Surah covers about 25 different issues, from the number of wives allowed, to the claim that Jesus was not crucified.

The moral and religious conditions of the People of the Book (the Jews) is reviewed to guide the Muslims and a warning is given to refrain from following their footsteps. Clear instructions are also given regarding the hypocrites and nonbelligerent tribes, and the superiority of Islamic morality and culture over the Jews, Christians and Pagans is firmly established.

Surah 8: Al-Anfal

This Surah was revealed in 2 A.H. After the battle of Badr, the first battle between Islam and Kufr. Since it contains a detailed and comprehensive review of the battle, it believed by Muslims that the whole Surah was revealed at the same time.

The major issues presented here are about the battle of truth and falsehood:
1.Truth should not be afraid because of the odds against it.
2.Fighting should not be for spoils or gains, but for a just cause.
3.Laws relating to peace and war are established.
4.The relation of an Islamic state with Muslims living in non-Muslim countries is also presented.

What evidence is there for and against them being taken as universal commands?

All the revelations given by Muhammad are universal decrees. Any events referred to in the Surahs are only a foundation for the decrees that were made. Many revelations are made that are contradictory to earlier ones and these “new” revelations are viewed by Muslims as countermanding the earlier statements. Because of this, and because of the apparent haphazard way the book is organized, it is not an easy read. It should also be noted that most of the decrees to kill unbelievers were given during the later part of the Prophet's life, after he had gained power and became more aggressive against his opposers.

Did this answer your questions?

[Lothar]

Did this answer your questions?

Yes. Thanks.

[Kilarin]

Thank you VERY much Shoku.

The apostles' decision was that the Gentile converts were not expected to follow any of the Mosaic law (with 4 exceptions.)

Which does NOT exclude the entire old testiment. Especially, for example, the 10 commandments. I'm not certain we are actually in disagreement here, it may simply be a matter of the way we prefer to phrase it.

[De Rigueur]

Thank you VERY much Shoku.

X2

The apostles' decision was that the Gentile converts were not expected to follow any of the Mosaic law (with 4 exceptions.)

Which does NOT exclude the entire old testiment. Especially, for example, the 10 commandments. I'm not certain we are actually in disagreement here, it may simply be a matter of the way we prefer to phrase it.

Actually, I am saying that (in a sense) the 10 commandments are not binding on Christians because they are part of the old covenant (or testament). There is a lot of overlap in the moral teachings of the OT and NT, so the content of the 10 commandments is binding on Christians due to its being included in the NT.

This may seem like an empty technicality, but I think there is a benefit from an apologetic standpoint. E.g., there is a drawback to vigorously defending the 10 commandments. Someone could reply, "Why should I take them seriously when just a few pages away, I'm told that eating lobster is a sin and adulteresses should be stoned?" Such questions can be avoided by sticking with the NT. (I am not saying that the NT is free from problems -- just that it's wise to pick your battles.)

[Duper]

The ramifications of the Mosaic Law on our lives as Christians is expounded on in the book of Hebrews.

[VonVulcan]

*I didn't creat this but I agree with it. I recieved it today in email from a friend. I don't know the origin.*

We wake up this morning to see video on CNN showing rampaging Muslims around the world. In Europe, the Middle East, the Pacific Rim ... Muslim Mobs spreading mayhem. It seems that these mighty mad Muslims are rioting and firing their ever-present AK-47s into the air because of cartoons. Yup ... this latest epidemic of Muslim outrage comes to us because some newspapers in Norway and Denmark published some cartoons depicting Mohammed.


Muslim outrage huh. OK ... let's do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:

* Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.
* A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
* Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage
* Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.
* Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.

Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims .. no Muslim outrage ... but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.

Come on, is this really about cartoons? They're rampaging and burning flags. They're looking for Europeans to kidnap. They're threatening innkeepers and generally raising holy Muslim hell not because of any outrage over a cartoon. They're outraged because it is part of the Islamic jihadist culture to be outraged. You don't really need a reason. You just need an excuse. Wandering around, destroying property, murdering children, firing guns into the air and feigning outrage over the slightest perceived insult is to a jihadist what tailgating is to a Steeler's fan.

I know and understand that these bloodthirsty murderers do not represent the majority of the world's Muslims. When, though, do they become outraged? When do they take to the streets to express their outrage at the radicals who are making their religion the object of worldwide hatred and ridicule? Islamic writer Salman Rushdie wrote of these silent Muslims in a New York Times article three years ago. \"As their ancient, deeply civilized culture of love, art and philosophical reflection is hijacked by paranoiacs, racists, liars, male supremacists, tyrants, fanatics and violence junkies, why are they not screaming?\"

Indeed. Why not?

[Duper]

Vulcan, the point in this thread, or rather what has been purused, is that this \"global riot\" is a minority painted to be the vast majority. Notice that CNN is showing (mostly) young men having caniptions. We don't REALLY know when that footage was shot or where or why. There's just the stations voice-over and the tape cuts. \"Muslims ritoing!! ACK! run away!!!! bah. They don't show the average Muslim at home shaking thier heads at what they're seeing on TV or just out haveing a normal day not caring what some dork half way around the world thinks.

I have no issue with you or your post. It brings out an important point. My beef is with an extremely bias media that calls itself \"fair\" and uses terms such as: \"Both sides of the story.\"

cya online bro

[De Rigueur]

Here's a report of a Muslim moderate:

http://apnews.myway.com//article/200602 ... LCSG4.html

\"By VIJAY JOSHI

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia (AP) - The Islamic world is fed up with violence and extremism in the name of religion and is ready for an era of progressive, democratic Muslim governments, former Iranian President Mohammad Khatami said Friday.\"

[VonVulcan]

Seems to me what I posted addresses that point. It also points out the lack of reaction from the \"Vast Majority\" that all this is eventually going to effect.
At least, thats what I got out of it.

[Flabby Chick]

The \"silent majority\" is there i'm sure of it, within my own circle of muslim friends i know it.

The society is based upon loyalty to the leaders under various guises of aggression, it's difficult to change centuries of culture, yet i'm sure it will come. I hope it will come because it could go either way at the moment...big time.

Good posts Shoku and Duper

[Kilarin]

They don't show the average Muslim at home shaking thier heads at what they're seeing on TV

The Islamic Radicals are fighting the wrong war, the old war, the cold war. They need to wake up and realize there is only one super power on the planet right now, and they are ticking it off.

If the majority of rational Muslims (and yes, I DO believe they are a majority) do NOT get the idiot radicals under control themselves, then genocide waits around the corner.

You get a few wolves that start attacking the sheep, and the ranchers exterminate ALL the wolves, because they can't tell which is which, and really don't care. If the moderate Muslims can't figure this out and get their radical branch under control, something horrible is going to happen.

[Duper]

not to be contensious, but there are still 2 super powers. China is the other one. Don't forget that they are there.

[roid]

*I didn't creat this but I agree with it. I recieved it today in email from a friend. I don't know the origin.*

We wake up this morning to see video on CNN showing rampaging Muslims around the world. In Europe, the Middle East, the Pacific Rim ... Muslim Mobs spreading mayhem. It seems that these mighty mad Muslims are rioting and firing their ever-present AK-47s into the air because of cartoons. Yup ... this latest epidemic of Muslim outrage comes to us because some newspapers in Norway and Denmark published some cartoons depicting Mohammed.


Muslim outrage huh. OK ... let's do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:

* Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.
* Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
...etc...

how would you hear said outrage? turn to the Muslim Culture TV Channel?

I recall seeing Muslim "outrage" over the September 11 attacks in the AUSTRALIAN media. I wouldn't expect your media outlets to report such things though.

(*I dunno, how do you define outrage? Are you outraged when thousands of people are killed when the WTC Buildings were destoryed; or are you outraged that millions of people are dying from starvation in africa?

I know which is more important, yet i also know which of these issues most americans are MORE outraged about.

I'm just saying this to pre-empt any kindof "Well Mulsims should of got angry over the 911 attacks like they get angry over Muhummed!" talk. Certain things strike different cultures differently, it depends on what your culture defines as important. When things are personal - that's when the ★■◆● can really hit the fan - or so i told myself in late 2001 while i listened to countless americans calling for the middle east to be converted into a glass plate. every culture has their "touchy subjects" i suppose.)

Basically, hearing Muslims talk about how empathetic they are to the deaths of their fellow humans, doesn't make as good sensational TV as a reporter tracking down small groups of people dancing in the streets and calling it "Every Muslim".

Are you saying your understanding of the Quran comes from reading it, then, and not from websites that list the quotes without context? And that you understand the Quran well enough to be reasonably sure of your interpretations?

Yes.

Thanks for your large post Shoku, it was quite good.

But under who's teaching did you learn all of this? What i'm suggesting is that you are not a part of Islam and never have been. Doing study on your own is all good and well, but it does have the unfortunate sideeffect of isolating you from other Muslims with which to share and refine your faith. I think you'd have a much different understanding of Islam if you had a chance to be a part of a wider liberal Islamic culture.

Since this is what this is all about. The organised majority of Muslim people's interpretation of the book. Not yours.

[Pandora]

But under who's teaching did you learn all of this? What i'm suggesting is that you are not a part of Islam and never have been. Doing study on your own is all good and well, but it does have the unfortunate sideeffect of isolating you from other Muslims with which to share and refine your faith. I think you'd have a much different understanding of Islam if you had a chance to be a part of a wider liberal Islamic culture.

Since this is what this is all about. The organised majority of Muslim people's interpretation of the book. Not yours.

This is a very good point. Every text is read and intepreted according to a certain 'culture'... muslims had centuries to think about the book and arrive at a certain way of reading it. It seems to me that us Westeners simply assume that the relationship of the Muslims to the Quran is the same as that of Christians to the bible. Our interpretation of the effect of the book on Muslims is based on this assumption, but we don't know if it is true in the first place.

For instance, it could be that the critical sections that Shoko posted are generally understood to be read in 'the spirit of the times' but do not literally apply to our century.

Of course i am just speculating, but I have real problems of mapping the excerpts from the Quran to the Muslims i know (and who describe themselves as devout Muslims)

[Kilarin]

What i'm suggesting is that you are not a part of Islam and never have been. Doing study on your own is all good and well, but it does have the unfortunate sideeffect of isolating you from other Muslims with which to share and refine your faith.

I DO wish we had an actual Muslim point of view here, apparently if we have any muslims on this international forum, they don't want to jump into this, which I guess I can understand, but it does leave us shy a point of view.

BUT!!!! The lack of that point of view does not invalidate Shoku's research, which is by far the best we've had so far. The rest of us are just spouting off without any actual knowledge. Shoku has invested the time and effort to study, which gives him the absolute and undeniable right to have an educated and respectable opinion.

I would feel exactly the same if we were discussing Christianity. Anyone who has read the Bible all the way through has an educated opinion worth listening to. I may very will disagree with them, but they are in an entirely different class than people who spout off without having ever studied anything.

[roid]

true that.

i'm only basing my assumptions on my worldview - which in turn is fed by what i see. A friend did urge me to read the Qu'ran and i felt somewhat obligated to at least try, but i got bored after reading a bit online.

I'd trust Shoku on finding parts of the text. But not on interpreting the people or culture.

[El Ka Bong]

That this is still going on, makes me want to ... well to .. Rant ! !

Freakin' mull-brained sheep ! All of you maniancs and moderates alike; BaaaaaaH... ! Chew on your cudogma, until you get run over by the truth because you can't see it coming !! Can't chew and see at the same time, so how could you live and be free !?

.. was that a mohammed-spotted-owl photo-chop..? .. speaking of devolving to extinction...

[Fusion pimp]

People should put things into perspective...
Teach your children not about a god...but about this:

Google Earth? heck yeah..Sometimes me and my daughter go to the grand canyon and use the zoom feature while adjusting the elevation.. it looks like you're flying right through it! Dude, she's better at navigating Google Earth than I am...

[Zuruck]

Vulcan, 30,000 Iraqi deaths have occured since the beginning of this war. Where is your outrage? Do you think our bombs only kill the intended targets? Is it that person's fault they were in the area when a B-52 dropped it from 50,000 ft? What fault did they have? Did they fly a plane into the towers? Did they send money to Palestine? Did they attack teh USS Cole?

On a side note, if you want to find violence in the Koran, you can. If you want to find violence in the Bible, you can. If you want to find peace in the Koran, you can as well. And if you want peace in the Bible, you can find there too.

[Duper]

Vulcan, 30,000 Iraqi deaths have occured since the beginning of this war. Where is your outrage? Do you think our bombs only kill the intended targets? Is it that person's fault they were in the area when a B-52 dropped it from 50,000 ft?

Does it matter? Hussien killed many more than that and much of his own family and freinds. the insurgents don't care WHO they kill and won't stop if we leave. I don't think that anyone really knows how many have been killed since this started; civilian or military. Might be more might be less. I realise that's not your point.

[Lothar]

if you want to find violence in the Koran, you can. If you want to find violence in the Bible, you can. If you want to find peace in the Koran, you can as well. And if you want peace in the Bible, you can find there too.

Right. That's why I asked Shoku to post his research... how does the violence and/or peace in each book fit into its central story, themes, ideas, etc? You can misuse most religious texts for plenty of nefarious aims. The question is, what's the PROPER use of those texts?

Here, I disagree with roid. The proper use of the texts is not "how modern people interpret them" but "the message they were intended to convey by those who wrote and assembled them". When discussing the text of the Koran or the Bible, I don't much care what the modern mainstream of Islam or Christianity thinks of the text; I care what the text is meant to say. The modern mainstream's view should be taken into account, but so should historical mainstream views and modern and historical fringe views, all of which should be evaluated against the text.

Now, if the text is frickin' nuts and the modern people have intentionally warped it to not be so nuts, I'm glad for those people's behavior. It doesn't change the fact that the text is frickin' nuts, but it does mean I won't view the people as negatively as I view those who take the frickin' nuts text at its word. (This goes for any frickin' nuts text!)

[El Ka Bong]

Being so contagious and all, laughter is the ultimate weapon !

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9628627413

I say, load a few hundred cruise missliles with warheads full of LSD, and then aim right...