Mouselook in D2X-XL - pros and cons

[Suncho]

Mouselook allows players to turn faster than is normally allowed. This is basically cheating and I can't find a way to disable it in a game. Am I missing something?

[Diedel]

Definitely not. This is absolutely unusual for every forum including the DBB.

Suncho,

I believe that mouse look removes a severe disadvantage a mouser has compared to a joystick player. Please don't quote the one mouser who was as good as the best stick players. The stick is the tool of choice for practically all really high ranked D2 players for a reason.

[Suncho]

Definitely not. This is absolutely unusual for every forum including the DBB.

This is an unusual forum. Sorry. I'll keep them together from now on.

Suncho,

I believe that mouse look removes a severe disadvantage a mouser has compared to a joystick player. Please don't quote the one mouser who was as good as the best stick players. The stick is the tool of choice for practically all really high ranked D2 players for a reason.

What disadvantage does the mouser have? Is there a bug that needs to be fixed? I'm not quoting anybody but myself. I've always been anti-mouselook and I think adding mouselook is one of the things that killed Descent 3. But in Descent 3 you can disable it on the server side.

[Diedel]

With the current turn speed limit, as a mouser you are forced to lift your mouse from the table/mouse pad over to a new position before being able to continue a turn if e.g. circle-strafing or flying tight turns. This is a very significant disadvantage compared to a joystick player. Are you a mouser? I doubt it, or you wouldn't have to ask such a question, or make such a ridiculous claim as 'mouse look (among others) killed D3'. If you had ever tried to play D3 multiplayer as mouser, you would know that it plain sucks. You have no chance against a skilled joystick player.

[Suncho]

With the current turn speed limit, as a mouser you are forced to lift your mouse from the table/mouse pad over to a new position before being able to continue a turn if e.g. circle-strafing or flying tight turns. This is a very significant disadvantage compared to a joystick player.

Try turning up your sensitivity and moving your mouse more slowly. You can't just whip it across the pad like in an FPS.

Are you a mouser?

I am now. No, just kidding. I just won't play D2X-XL.

I doubt it, or you wouldn't have to ask such a question, or make such a ridiculous claim as 'mouse look (among others) killed D3'.

Mouselook was one factor.

If you had ever tried to play D3 multiplayer as mouser, you would know that it plain sucks.

I played D3 using the mouse for quite some time (many months). In fact I devised the optimal mouse config for playing D3. How much have you played D3 using the mouse? How much have you played D3 using a joystick?

You have no chance against a skilled joystick player.

That's not true. I will concede that a mouse might be slightly lacking, but that is always the case when you play with inferior hardware. Should we give people with smaller monitors a higher framerate cap? Should we give people playing on 56k modems twice as many shields?

[Diedel]

I have been playing as mouser almost exclusively. Tried the stick a few times. Disadvantage by having to physically lift the mouse to a new place is much greater than caused by a smaller monitor or so. Please don't compare apples with oranges.

Mouselook didn't hurt D3 (you could turn it off server side, remember? ). It's the entire feel of the game that did, plus the unbalanced weapons. Pyros look like insects in D3 levels. They're totally out of scale. The textures, lighting and sounds just lack the spirit of the former two games. And if anything, the Mass Driver has killed this game. Try to use the MD as a mouser. You know it won't work, because the MD needs high frame rates, which are a mouser's 'natural enemy' in D3. Mouse support in D3 is almost as lackluster as in D1/D2. And then, Descent is a 3D shooter, not a simulator.

[Suncho]

Hey, it's your thing man. I can't knock all the hard work you've put into it. But if you change the way the game works, then it's not the same game anymore. Descent isn't a game for mousers. It's a control method that just happens to be also supported. Sounds like you're turning it into 6DOF Quake... and can you honestly claim that the MD is worse than the Gauss cannon?

[TechPro]

...this is a bug I have fixed in v1.5.116 which was caused by some changes to D1 trigger handling in v1.5.114. Unfortunately, the effects of this bug are stored in save games made after it was introduced. You will have to replay that level, or the one before. Sorry.

Yup, I went back a couple saved games and was then able to finish the game I was doing. MD Lives! (Thank You, Diedel!)

Something odd... Everytime I advance to the lext level, the "Display HUD" option turns off. v1.5.116

[Ferno]

I tried out the mouselook option. it basically allows you to spin around at a VERY fast rate. this is a built-in cheat.

It reminds me of the instant 180 degree spin the spaceorb users have.

Now i can look forward to d2x-xl users using mouselook to spin around 180 degrees almost instantly and feeding me a salvo of weapons fire. thanks.

[Diedel]

Ferno, Suncho,

I have explained why imo mouselook is an acceptable option for mousers vs. stick players. It does change the game compared to the original. Imo it does so for the better. Mouse control implementation was poorly done in D1+D2, and just because the developers did it that way it does by no way mean it is the only, perfect way to go and cannot be improved. The design decisions in this regard imo were plain wrong, giving mousers a severe disadvantage where it wouldn't have needed to be. Mouse control even was frame rate dependant. Do you want to force me to put that back into D2X-XL, too? This was about the first thing I had changed way back when starting to make D2X-W32. If you look at this, D2X-XL definitely is not true to the original, thank God. The same is true for homing missiles, where I have capped the turn rate to 40 fps, giving halfway equal conditions to all players in a multiplayer game, whether their hardware delivers 30 or 300 fps. This means if a player with a 3dfx card and d2_3dfx delivering 150 fps plays a player with an OpenGL card and D2X-XL delivering 150 fps, the D2X-XL player will have a way easier time to dodge homers. Cheating? I find such vast differences of the game's behaviour simply depending on the hardware much more of a cheat (in the sense of a flaw putting players at an advantage or disadvantage).

That's my last word on it.

As far as I have understood it, both of you are not playing D2X-XL, at least not regularly, and not in multiplayer matches. That doesn't make you exactly the people I'd really listen to when it's about changing something in D2X-XL. Actually I feel a little smart-assed by people who have nothing really to do with the project here, but are trying to tell me how to handle it. I don't want to insult you, but that's how I feel about it right now. My only offer might be to make it a game host (server) option. But that would have to be requested by the majority of the people regularly playing D2X-XL multiplayer.

I recommend you play D2X-XL multiplayer for a while, and if the mousers constantly whoop your behind, come back.

Suncho,

imo the MD is way worse. You have the zoom (if you want to use it from really far away), and it totally spins the hit ship out of control, making it an easy target for the next one or two hits that finish it off. You can still flee from the Gauss cannon. The Gauss never was the weapon of choice in D2, but the MD is the weapon of choice in D3. Go figure.

[Ferno]

Do you disagree that it gives players the ability to turn faster than people who use the joystick?

[Diedel]

I have said everything I have to say about this, so I wonder why you have to ask again. But if you want me to think for you , alright.

Currently, a mouser effectively can only turn slower than a stick player. Mouselook allows him to turn faster and thus balance that effect. I believe that mouselook finally gives equal chances to stick and mouse players steering-wise. I believe it removes a very unfair element from the game and makes it fair for every participant in regard of use and influence of input control devices.

I hope this leaves no more room for interpretation of my sight of this issue.

[Garak]

I would think that, ideally, neither type of controller should allow a player to turn faster than another. But what do I know. I don't play with mouselook on either, and wasn't aware of the option until this little discussion. As far as turn rate goes, how much faster can a mouser out turn a stick player?

[Grendel]

Currently, a mouser effectively can only turn slower than a stick player. Mouselook allows him to turn faster and thus balance that effect. I believe that mouselook finally gives equal chances to stick and mouse players steering-wise. I believe it removes a very unfair element from the game and makes it fair for every participant in regard of use and influence of input control devices.

How about fixing the turnrate of the mouse instead of creating an imbalance in favor of mousers ?

[Diedel]

Grendel,

how about reading and understanding this thread and what has already been done regarding mouse control in D2X-XL? Oh well, you're too busy ... ... and obviously have never tried D2X-XL.

[Grendel]

how about reading and understanding this thread and what has already been done regarding mouse control in D2X-XL?

I thought I did -- what was the reason for having the turnrate of the mouse so low again ?

... and obviously have never tried D2X-XL.

Not w/ mouse, no. I only play w/ stick.

[Suncho]

There's a reason why you use a mouse in ground pounders rather than a Joystick. The mouse can turn as fast as it wants. The joystick, no matter what sensitivity you set it at, always has a maximum turn rate.

In Descent they made it fair by capping the turn rate of the ship. Nobody can turn faster than x rotations per time period.

Sure it was framerate dependent and buggy, but the fact that the mouse player can't turn as fast as he wants was *NOT* one of these bugs.

Part of what sets Descent apart from games like Quake is the added factor of positioning and maneuvering. It's an art to be able to stay behind someone and to juke them out so they turn in the wrong direction and have to spend time compensating. If you can just point and click at your target, it takes away that important aspect of what makes Descent the way it is.

We can't have any serious competition when a feature like mouselook exists in Descent. I've spent a long time learning how to fly with my joystick/keyboard, mouse/keyboard, and straight-up keyboard. This \"feature\" essentially nullifies all those years I spent training.

Although it is unfair and does give an advantage to mousers to the point where using a joystick is useless in multiplayer, that's not what makes it inherently wrong. What makes it wrong is that we're not even playing Descent anymore. We're playing 6DOF Quake. Descent is my all-time favorite game, and that's the game I want to play.

Sure, I could learn how to play this new game using the new mouse control, but mouselook will probably end up being removed from D2X anyway, and all the time I put into that will have been wasted. I was interested in getting into some D1/D2 multiplayer, but that's not what this is anymore, is it?

[Suncho]

Ok. I just did a test. With the mouse at default sensitivity, I can do 1.5 full rotations of my ship without lifting my mouse off of the mousepad. How is that a serious disadvantage?

[Diedel]

I said that if you want to do continuous turns, or maneuver a lot in a real multiplayer fight, you will have to lift the mouse over to another position on the table!

Your artificial test is worth crap! In real applications, a stick player will have an advantage: He just keeps the stick tilted!

You need to test this in a real application, not in perfect conditions trying to find out how to spin as good with the mouse (once) as with a joystick.

[KoolBear]

Diedel,

Is mouselook here like the one in D3?

[Suncho]

I do understand what you're saying. It's true that the mouse player can't continuously turn indefinitely. But that's a limitation of the hardware. Using inferior hardware always limits the player.

The reality of the situation is that if you do not use the mouse, but instead use the keyboard for everything, you'll be able to turn indefinitely just like a joystick player.

Nobody's forcing you to use the mouse. You do have a keyboard, don't you?

If you want the turning ability of a joystick and the aiming precision of a mouse, then bind turn keys to your keyboard and use those in conjunction with the mouse for aiming.

The mouse may not be able to turn as well, but the aiming is precise. There has been a lot of debate as to which is better. In Descent 3, many of the best players use mouse/keyboard without mouselook enabled.

The important thing is that whatever you do to compensate for inferior hardware, I don't think it should break the rules of the game. That's all I'm trying to say. =)

Don't be mad at me. I'm just trying to help. I really appreciate all the work you've done.

[Diedel]

There is an easy way to remove the disadvantage of mouse by software. Imo it simply puts the mouse on the same level with the joystick. Aiming with a mouse while flying with high mouse sensitivity is not improved significantly and does not give you an advantage over a joystick player. Imo having mouselook is like limiting homing missile turn rate: It removes the disadvantage of a certain piece of hardware.

I have always been a mouser. I tried to play with a stick, but I am a lousy Descent player with it. I even get my butt whooped in D3 as mouser (because playing with the mouse just don't cut it).

Maneuvering with a mouse w/o mouselook gets even worse for pitch movements. Try to do a barrel roll with mouse.

What you are doing is denying me the fun the joystick players are having simply because I cannot handle a stick and you don't want to be the mouse on par with one. This is not helpful. Imo having mouselook is fixing the rules, not breaking it. D2 rule is: Play with stick or die. That cannot be the final word.

[Suncho]

There is an easy way to remove the disadvantage of mouse by software. Imo it simply puts the mouse on the same level with the joystick.

Well I disagree. I think limiting the turn rate removes the advantage of the mouse so that joystick players can have the same potential to get good at the game.

Aiming with a mouse while flying with high mouse sensitivity is not improved significantly and does not give you an advantage over a joystick player.

I'd actually like to be able to lower my mouse sensitivity. I'd turn just as fast, but have better aim.

Imo having mouselook is like limiting homing missile turn rate: It removes the disadvantage of a certain piece of hardware.

The difference is that limiting the missile turn rate limits it the same for everybody. In my opinion, the ship turn rate should also be limited to the same value for everybody.

I have always been a mouser. I tried to play with a stick, but I am a lousy Descent player with it. I even get my butt whooped in D3 as mouser (because playing with the mouse just don't cut it).

Have you ever considered the notion that maybe you're just as good with the mouse as you are with the stick, but you're using mouselook to get an unfair advantage?

Maneuvering with a mouse w/o mouselook gets even worse for pitch movements. Try to do a barrel roll with mouse.

I do it all the time. If you're having trouble, I can help you learn how to play this game. It is not necessary give yourself advantages in the code. You can be a good player without it.

What you are doing is denying me the fun the joystick players are having simply because I cannot handle a stick and you don't want to be the mouse on par with one. This is not helpful. Imo having mouselook is fixing the rules, not breaking it. D2 rule is: Play with stick or die. That cannot be the final word.

If you can handle a mouse in Descent, you can learn how to handle a stick. The gameplay is still the same. If you can't handle a stick, then you can't handle the mouse either, and I think that's the frustration you're seeing. As I said, I'll be happy to help you learn how to play. We can both play with kb/mouse and mouselook disabled.

The D2 rule is not "play with a stick or die." The good players usually have joysticks because they're serious about the game and spent more money on hardware. People who are serious about the game invest more into it.

The best players aren't the best because they use joysticks.

They're the best because they're serious about the game.

They have joysticks and other advanced hardware because they're serious about the game and decided to spend money.

A joystick does not make you a good player. Enabling mouselook on the mouse *DOES* make you a good player because it gives you a software advantage over all the other players.

[Diedel]

Reality proves you wrong. Mouselook removes a disadvantage, it does not give you an advantage. Go figure why almost all top Descent players use joysticks - even in D3, where you can have mouselook.

I told you where the limitations for mousers are w/o mouselook, and you prefer not to understand. You are not a mouser, and you apparently don't have a clue about it.

I said this all before, but you don't listen. I am tired of this repeated exchange of the exact same arguments.

out.

[Suncho]

I am a mouser. Let's schedule a daily D2 game. I will train you and show you that a mouser can be just as good as a joystick user even if he doesn't use mouselook. It'll be fun. =)

EDIT: Let's actually play D1 (using D2X-XL though). The weapons are more balanced.

[Diedel]

With 500 ms ping.

[Suncho]

Sure! I used to play D2 with 750ms ping on a 14.4 modem.

You don't usually play multiplayer?

[Ferno]

If mouse was such a disadvantage, then why do Birdseye and Psion use it all the time?

just for the record, I use both joystick and mouse. In multiplayer.

What you are doing is denying me the fun the joystick players are having simply because I cannot handle a stick and you don't want to be the mouse on par with one. This is not helpful. Imo having mouselook is fixing the rules, not breaking it. D2 rule is: Play with stick or die. That cannot be the final word.

This is rediculous and quite frankly, a little insulting. No one here is trying to deny you anything.

What we're doing is showing you that the mouselook feature you have implemented has given a distinct and unfair advantage over joystick players. I can do a 360 degree turn (yawing) in under a half a second, while the joystick does it in two.

[Burlyman]

OMG...Dude! You're already giving us mousers an advantage by eliminating input device ramping and raising sensitivity levels in D2X-XL...do you really think we need mouselook too? The fact is, the top players are actually mousers...here are the callsigns of a few top players (or just players who can sm0ke a n00b) who are mousers, in no particular order:

Xeon
Birdseye
teh Cr0wN and a few Crown-like people (LOL)
ThunderBunny!
Neo
Behemoth
Zero!
Suncho - I don't know if he still uses mouse in D2 or D3, but he says he can help you...

[Suncho]

Nice list. Don't forget Testiculese. =)

teh Cr0wN and a few Crown-like people (LOL)

Lobotomy... and uh... who was the other one? Beowulf? Wakeman? I forget which one of them is a mouse user.

Suncho - I don't know if he still uses mouse in D2 or D3, but he says he can help you...

Well I haven't really played D3 much lately, but I do use the mouse in D2 without mouselook. I can help you, Diedel.

[MD-2389]

Welp, that just sealed the deal for me. D2x has gone from a decent upgrade and turned into a wankfest. Nice to see that you aren't that open to criticism Diedel. I think I'll move on to DXX.

[Ferno]

ya know what? Until that 'feature' (read: hack) is removed, I'm done with D2x. as is the rest of Kali.

Thanks for screwing with the way the game handles.

On to DXX.

[Suncho]

Geez guys, chill out. It's not like you can't run a restricted game and ban people you see mouselooking. I think most Descent players are trustworthy enough that they won't even try it.

D2X-XL has a ton of good stuff and I'm confident that once Diedel learns more about how to play Descent, he will agree with us.

[Ferno]

Geez guys, chill out. It's not like you can't run a restricted game and ban people you see mouselooking. I think most Descent players are trustworthy enough that they won't even try it.

you can't ban people, but you can kick them. unfortunately, this means they come back.

D2X-XL has a ton of good stuff and I'm confident that once Diedel learns more about how to play Descent, he will agree with us.

exactly.

when it's fixed i'll use d2x again. but not until then.

[Suncho]

Geez guys, chill out. It's not like you can't run a restricted game and ban people you see mouselooking. I think most Descent players are trustworthy enough that they won't even try it.

you can't ban people, but you can kick them. unfortunately, this means they come back.

If it's a restricted game, the host has to send a command to allow any players to join... unless they changed it in D2X...

[Lothar]

Imo it simply puts the mouse on the same level with the joystick.

Then your opinion is wrong.

Allowing mouse players to make multiple turns without picking up the mouse "simply puts the mouse on the same level as the joystick". Allowing mouse players to make those multiple turns faster than they can be made with either a joystick or a keyboard puts mouse players at an unfair advantage.

I'm not a mouser, but my wife is, and we both share this opinion. Using something like ps2rate to make it so you can play without lifting up your mouse (without violating the game physics) is legit; using mouselook is not. If you insist on including the feature for your own benefit, you absolutely *must* include a way to disallow it for whole multiplayer games. Otherwise, you're introducing a cheat.

[Diedel]

ya know what? Until that 'feature' (read: hack) is removed, I'm done with D2x. as is the rest of Kali.

Thanks for screwing with the way the game handles.

On to DXX.

Ferno,

I am really getting to be fed up with the tone this debate evolves into. you had tried to talk to me like that in the past. Actually, you can bite me that way. I had already talked about making it a server side option. Your tone doesn't help this.

There's few people who use D2X-XL for multiplayer anyway, most play single/coop. And so far, nobody has been using all the advanced game features (CTF++, Entropy) I have built into it. Seen that way, many of my efforts were a waste of time. Convince me into doing something for the D2 multiplayer community first!

I think you stick players are sorry for seeing the advantage you had vanish.

Go use DXX. Be aware though that it has hard-coded mouselook built into it, no way to turn it off using a switch. There you have it.

Lothar,

I see it differently. You will inevitably have to lift the mouse from the table during real multiplayer battles. PS2rate afaik has no effect when using D2X-XL, nor on USB mice. The problem is in the way D2 samples mouse movements. Mouselook is not about making multiple turns - that's an artificially constructed situation again - it's about being able to turn w/o having to lift the mouse around.

Diedel

[Pumo]

Well, i'm a mouser and i have a joystick, but i never use it for Descent. Like many people said here, a lot of good players uses Mouse instead of Joystick. I don't think that Mouselook is that necesary. Or well, what about a limited Mouselook, i mean, not so fast (for me as a mouser, is toooooo fast, even unusable! ) i don't like it too much, BUT if Diedel wants to use it, he could only slow it a bit. Also, a toggle to make ALL players on a netgame to use Mouselook (obviously, also with the option of ALL players NOT to use it) would be useful. All players that enter that netgame, will be forced to use Mouselook (or not use it, depend on toggle), and then there is no cheating.

Anyway, i'm not a Multiplayer fanatic, and i use a LOT D2X-XL and think is a very neat work of diedel So please Diedel, even if i don't like these Mouselook, the entire program is supberb, so, don't give up, it doesn't matter if others doesn't like it.

Thats one of the reasons because i don't like Multiplayer: The people starts to fight and to insult for nothing really important.
So, Single Player forever!

[Suncho]

I see it differently. You will inevitably have to lift the mouse from the table during real multiplayer battles.

This simply isn't true Diedel. You need to learn how to bank in such away that the mouse is always moving inward when it's near the edge of the mousepad.

Just stop lifting the mouse up. You'll suck for a while, but eventually you'll adjust and be better for it. It's good training because when you're banking all the time you're harder to hit anyway.

[Diedel]

I have added a server side mouselook option to v1.5.121.

I think I hate you now.

Sure! I used to play D2 with 750ms ping on a 14.4 modem.

You don't usually play multiplayer?

I haven't played Descent multiplayer for many months now. In D3, I get devastated by the MD experts (are there any non-MD experts left out there?) and I don't like it anyway. In D2, I hardly find someone to play with me, at least when I have time (11 pm or later).

I played a lot D2 earlier (when it was new, I played it for hours every day). So I have a lot of mp experience as mouser, and I find it hard to believe that you can achieve a maneuvering skill that comes close to that of an experienced joystick player with the mouse.