Whats so impractical about a wall anyway?

[ccb056]

I mean really, how difficult would building a wall really be?

Lets see, the US/Mexican border is 1,951 miles long.

China's \"Great Wall\" is 3,948 miles, nearly twice as long.

Granted, this wall will do little to stop people from comming through tunnels. But it will put a serious crimp in all the illegal activity occuring down there. The majority of criminals, erh, I mean illegal immigrants, don't come through tunnels, they walk accross the open border.

Even though unemployment in the US is virtualy non-existant now, below 5% is statistically no-existant, I'm sure there are hundreds of construction firms out there willing to bid on a government project of this magnitude. Hell, I hope Halliburton gets it.

If China's wall was able to keep war mongering militaries out of their country. I'm fairly certain that a US version will be capable of keeping out a bunch of poor dirty criminals.

And just to prove I'm not a heartless bastard, any illegal immigrant not involved in any other criminal activity will be allowed to help in the construction of the wall, and after the wall has been built, will be able to become an American citizen... their wages will of course be taxed, and the must prove that they have lived and worked in the US for the past 2 years, and they would have to pay taxes on those wages

[Ferno]

Why just build a wall along the border? how about building a wall around every city!

[ccb056]

its not a crime for an american citizen to travel to a different city...

[Xamindar]

That does sound like a good idea. Maybe we can start a petition for it.

[ccb056]

maybe an online petition?

[Kilarin]

In part, because the rich people who bought river front property along the border don't WANT a wall there, and won't necessarily give permission to let you put it up on their private property.

In part because it would be unbelievably expensive.

In part because the wall is of very limited use if it isn't MANNED and we simply don't have the manpower to man it.

In part because the wall is expensive and the countermeasures are cheap. Forget tunnels. A few sticks of dynamite and you've made a big hole that will require a lot of repair. Keep blowing a few holes in the wall every night and it will cost us a LOT more to keep that wall up than it will cost them to keep tearing it down.

[Testiculese]

I believe a wall was built once, after a certain big war. Our police aren't very far from being the same type of people. Do you really want a military-controlled wall?

[ccb056]

IDK, why wouldn't I want a military controlled wall?

[Ferno]

go ask the people in berlin how that worked out.

[ccb056]

I can see how a mexican can make that comparison, they think that 1/2 the US land should belong to mexico.

Thing is, the berlin wall seperated 1 country into 2, all this wall does is seperate 2 seperate countries.

[MD-2389]

Actually, they did have a fence along the border between California and Mexico. Problem is, they coudln't run it through the beach because tides kept washing it out, and beach go-ers just walked around the part that was still standing. I have no idea if its still there though. I remember this being shown on the Discovery channel a few years ago.

[ccb056]

Yeah, a fence won't work, I'm talking about a steel/concrete wall, easy enough to build in water ...

[Kilarin]

they did have a fence along the border between California and Mexico. Problem is, they coudln't run it through the beach because tides kept washing it out,

Good point. You would have to do a LOT of very expensive work to keep the rio grande from moving around.

Thing is, the berlin wall seperated 1 country into 2, all this wall does is seperate 2 seperate countries.

Doesn't make any difference in the military requirement. The only way to keep the Berlin wall up (and it was a LOT smaller than the US/Mexico border) was with massive millitary enforcement.

And if at any point you RELAX that military presence, people just start walking up to the wall with a few sticks of dynamite. dig a little hole, light a match, run.

So, suppose we start doing some SERIOUS millitary retaliation. Well, considering people are ready to risks their lives in dangerous desert crossings, I'm not certain that would stop people from running up to the wall with dynamite anyway, (or driving up a truck full of diesel and fertilizer) but lets suppose the millitary succeeds in making that attack impractical.

It's childs play to build a cannon or rocket that could launch a stick of dynamite a hundred yards or more. Heck, I could build a Trebuchet that would do it. Even just a good Bow could send a stick of dynamite quite a long way.

So now the military has to establish a large "No Mans Land" in front of the wall to keep people far enough away that they can't damage it.

But, get someone who actually has some skills, and you can build a cannon or rocket that will send your stick of dynamite a lot further. Or perhaps your drug dealers will actually spend some cash picking up military surplus rockets. The folks in Palestine have no trouble getting them. But they wouldn't be needed, home made equipment could have a range of a mile or more without trouble. So now the no-mans-land has to get bigger, and our military is firing rockets and sending troops into Mexico on retalitory raids.

Are you prepared to have a huge millitary machine sitting on our border and launching missiles or sending troops into Mexico on a regular basis? Even if it works, the expense in dollars will be HUGE. And the expense on our culture and society could be even larger.

A wall sends the wrong message about our relationship with Mexico. And a wall tries to fix the wrong problem. Stop people from hiring illegal aliens, then they won't have any reason to come over illegally. Make it easier to come over legally and, again, they won't have any reason to come over illegally.

[Ferno]

Kil, you more or less said exactly what I was thinking.

[Admiral Thrawn]

a bunch of poor dirty criminals.

You guys are pathetic

[Diedel]

You guys really don't know how to build a good, solid wall keeping people where they're supposed to.

Let's see: First of all, you will use pre-built concrete wall segments. On the top, you will place a concrete tube with a big enough diameter to make it impossible to fasten grappling hooks on it. But that's only the beginning. As the wall needs a good foundation, how about putting steel beams deep enough into the ground below it to make digging tunnels an extremely difficult task? Let's say 60 ft? (Not required for rocky ground - just in case you ask.)

You will have a deep and wide ditch behind the wall (on your side), that is too wide to jump over and too deep to climb out.

On the 'other' side, you will have a 1500 ft deep area that is completely freed of any vegetation. That area will be mined (very important! ). Additionally, you will have mines elevated on poles that are triggered by seismic and/or thin trip wires.

(Note to Kilarin: And you thought you could just walk up to the wall and blow it up! )

Behind the wall and ditch (your side ) you will have guard personnel with dogs patrolling. You can also test the new remote controlled armed robots the U.S. military is developing there. That would save a lot of money for the night shifts, as the gaming kids you will have operate that gear have their waking hours at night anyway.

Well, and I almost forgot it: You will need to build guard towers in a regular pattern behind the installation. Ofc good light installations are a must.

For beaches and rivers simply put the wall (maybe steel here) on pontoons, and have a net reach down really far. I leave figuring the details for dealing with river floods to you.

Hey, you can have the Stasi officers still around in Germany, they will certainly help you. They have already begun to feel like victims here, poor guys (well, life can be boring if you can't get your daily torture session). You can have them all.

When they're done building your wall, you can even use them as test personnel and have them run through the mine fields.

Or maybe ... I wonder if some here will even get to like them, looking at their stance in this discussion ...

[CDN_Merlin]

build a wall around the entire US and fill it with water.

[Diedel]

[Testiculese]

LOL

Fat floats...fill it with concrete instead.

[SirWinner]

Let's see... Does the \"How many politicians\" joke apply here?

The wall would be very expensive.

There is no easy answer.

You can make points on both sides of the argument.

Not sure of the exact answer.

On one hand, many of the people that are here (USA) \"illegally\" do jobs that many people wouldn't want to do... yet have been here for many many many years.

On the other hand, those that have had to \"earn\" their citizenship through years of hard work and effort knew that it was a long road and worth the wait.

Then you have those that are here illegally that have children born in the USA that are American Citizens... So what do you do to deal with that issue too?

No matter which side of the issue or issue neutral on this one, this won't be easy to resolve.

[Kilarin]

Note to Kilarin: And you thought you could just walk up to the wall and blow it up!

Ha! Not a bad design. Good demonstration of the fact that it CAN be done, but the expense, on all levels, is going to be simply unacceptable.

[dissent]

I thought this was pretty hilarious

From http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12591413/

Nearly three-quarters incorrectly named English as the most widely spoken native language.

Six in 10 did not know the border between North and South Korea is the most heavily fortified in the world. Thirty percent thought the most heavily fortified border was between the United States and Mexico.

If I didn't laugh, I'd have to cry. Makes me wonder what they're teaching in schools these days.

[Money!]

You guys didn't even mention what it would do to our economy. The price of everything, especially farmed foods, would go wayyy up. People say they take our jobs, but really, people hire them because they know they can rip Mexicans off and they won't care because they're still in America, and they can't talk any ★■◆● because if they do they'll be deported. If we didn't have Mexicans, we'd have (sorry for stereotypes) housecleaners, farmers, janitors, lawn mowers, etc, but we'd be paying them minimum wage. That means that companies employing these workers would have to raise their prices of their products accordingly to meet the increasing cost of paying their employees. I say bring on the Mexicans, because the more that aren't here, the more stuff costs.

[Testiculese]

There's no reason that most any company can't afford to pay minimum wage. Far to many can easily afford 2x minimum wage as a minimum wage, except that they are too busy grossly overpaying their top managers. Do you know what the top managers make a year at these companies? One manager's Christmas bonus could pay a $50k salary to 6 people.

[Dakatsu]

Come on, there is a simple solution to this:

Americans want the contributions of the poor and the immigrant without having to actually see or be among them. Which is why I suggest, instead of building a wall on the border, we build a Wal-Mart. It would be 1,950 miles long, or the size of a normal Wal-Mart. And there would still be just the one register open. But it would solve this problem.

Because if we built this Wal-Mart exactly on the border, the Americans could come through the front door and shop, and the Mexicans could come through the back door and work. And then go home the same way at night, unless they got locked in. It is Wal-Mart.

Okay, that was taken from Bill Maher

[Kilarin]

I say bring on the Mexicans, because the more that aren't here, the more stuff costs.

Two very important points:

1: The whole "Jobs Americans Won't Do", line is nonsense. Many states have almost no illegal immigrants, and yet they have people doing those same jobs. They hire U.S. Citizens and have to pay them a proper wage instead of exploiting some poor guy from Mexico who can't complain about the abuse.

2: Don't believe that the jobs going to cheap overseas labor are all low end. My company has fired the vast majority of its software engineers to let the work be done by cheap labor in India and Brazil. The X-Rays at hospitals are being read by offshore doctors. etc.

Yes, if we actually start using Citizen labor, prices will go up, thats the cost of actually supporting Citizens with your purchases instead of sending more GNP over the border.

We can't continue to live off of the labor of people in countries with a lower standard of living. Sooner or later there won't be anyone left over here who can aford to purchase the products produced.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Yes, if we actually start using Citizen labor, prices will go up, thats the cost of actually supporting Citizens with your purchases instead of sending more GNP over the border.

Companies aren't going to do that. If it's not cheap mexican labor, it will be someone else. But it won't be in the United States. At least with the labor here, a lot of the money makes it back into the American econonomy. Offshore that job to China, and well, we all know the deal.

[Isaac]

If anything else, mexican know how to work with their hands. They've had jobs building walls, digging ditches, and bridges. If they can build a tunnel, making a shorter one inside a wall should be easy. People break out of prison all the time... several thousand people attacking a wall every day is gonnna get penetrated.

[CDN_Merlin]

Why not let Mobius lose in in the US? I'm sure that would scare them all away.

[Isaac]

Why not let Mobius lose in in the US? I'm sure that would scare them all away.

.. Then watch mexico put up a wall.

[JMEaT]

Why not let Mobius lose in in the US? I'm sure that would scare them all away.

.. Then watch mexico put up a wall.

Why not just build a wall around Mobius?

[Kilarin]

several thousand people attacking a wall every day is gonnna get penetrated.

And actually, now that I think about it. Why even bother trying to go THROUGH the wall, when you could just get in a boat and go AROUND it. Are we going to extend the wall to cover the complete coastlines of California and Texas?

[Isaac]

they do go around... But drug smugglers are caught more often doing that than illigal immigrants.

[Nirvana]

If anything else, mexican know how to work with their hands. They've had jobs building walls, digging ditches, and bridges. If they can build a tunnel, making a shorter one inside a wall should be easy. People break out of prison all the time... several thousand people attacking a wall every day is gonnna get penetrated.

So you're saying we should have them build the aforementioned wall for $3/hr

Great idea!

[Isaac]

It would be stupid to build a wall, using US tax payer dollars. The US should force mexico to build a wall around it's own country. Hell.. it might help their economy.