Killings

aaronb · Post by **aaronb** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:54 am

Dakatsu wrote:I just realized, since me & my girlfriend both are 13, wouldn't that make me a child molester?

Depends where you touch her

ccb056 · Post by **ccb056** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:33 pm

sorry to bring up this old thread, but I think it's important to note that these killings were done in a 1 room schoolhouse

http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/sanlui ... 743612.htm

nothing bet has come up with could have stopped them

Kilarin · Post by **Kilarin** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:42 pm

ccb056 wrote:it's important to note that these killings were done in a 1 room schoolhouse

And they are Amish, they won't tolerate having armed guards about.

Speaking of which, did everyone note that the families of the victims invited the family of the perpetrator to the funeral. I tell you, there are a lot of things to admire about the Amish.

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:32 pm

Yes, my idea wouldn't have worked for that simple one room school but at least I had an idea and it doesn't change the fact that our schools need to have the same level of protection afforded the members of congress, the white house, the capital, the police stations, homes with security systems, etc, etc, etc.

I also admire the Amish very very much except for the forgiveness they gave the shooter. He makes me sick to my stomach and I hope he burns in hell for eternity. I hope people find his grave and destroy it.

Bee

Kilarin · Post by **Kilarin** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:39 pm

Bettina wrote:I also admire the Amish very very much except for the forgiveness they gave the shooter.

Trust me, I'm much closer to you than to the Amish when it comes to how I feel about this.

BUT, I recognize that holding on to hatred only hurts yourself. On this point, the Amish are right, I'm just not as far along in my walk as they are.

He makes me sick to my stomach and I hope he burns in hell for eternity.

See, sometimes it's HANDY to be a theist.

Actually though, this case doesn't anger me as much as many others. I strongly suspect that the shooter had blown a mental fuse. His behavior doesn't make sense on any level. I think this guy had a short circuit in his brain.

The death of those children is absolutely tragic, but I see it as more in line with a terrible accident, as if a gas main nearby had exploded, than as if a terrorist had made a CHOICE to go in and blow himself and the kids up.

Oh, and just to clarify before the conservatives jump on me for it, I don't believe in the insanity defense. The fact that someone has gone crazy enough that they don't know right from wrong is WHY I want them locked safely behind bars, or dead.

catch22 · Post by **catch22** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:11 am

I also admire the Amish very very much except for the forgiveness they gave the shooter.

Out of curiosity, what do you admire about the Amish?

In my mind, people have a very skewed image of the Amish. I feel safe saying the the Amish are VERY human. They are subject to the same falacies as everyone else and react accordingly. The menonite orders that "govern" their communities do carry a very strict set of traditional rules and philosophies, which is what most people know about. That doesn't mean that they always adhere to them (though most of the elder memebers of the community probably do. Why they do is subject to debate but at that stage in their lives, I'm not sure how much of effect they have on the younger members other then passing on the traditional values)

I can also assure anyone that some of their philosophies, especially those concerning their property, aren't the best.

I'm not trying to single out Bettina, just making a general observation. If I were to name the thing I most respect about the Amish, is they are FAR more aware of their position in the world then most others. I think part of that is how their communities are defined and operate. I can defenitly respect the fact that many of them (not all) choose a simple life for reasons I can only guess about.

Kilarin · Post by **Kilarin** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:54 am

Out of curiosity, what do you admire about the Amish?

I'll give my answer since I brought it up.

I disagree with thier stance of absolute non-violence, but I admire their strength of character to stick by it.

I also disagree with the degree to which they shun the world, but again, admire their ability to make the choice and live within those limits, even if it means giving up many luxuries. And, quite frankly, I have a lot of sympathy towards that simpler lifestyle. That is, as long as I'm observing it from a distance. Most of the sympathy would go away were I to try and live it.

I think thier insistance upon forgiving anyone who does them wrong is a model that we all should learn to follow.

One of the places I disagree with them most strongly is the practice of shunning.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:10 pm

catch22 wrote:The menonite orders that "govern" their communities do carry a very strict set of traditional rules and philosophies

Mennonite and Amish are not the same thing. We have a lot in common, but it's misleading to say Mennonites govern Amish or vice versa. (And, of course, the categories are very broad -- I've met Amish families who drive black vans, Mennonite computer programmers, and Amish and Mennonites who live in the more "traditional" setting.)

I think thier insistance upon forgiving anyone who does them wrong is a model that we all should learn to follow.

Somebody I know wrote an article about that topic after his sister's murder. It was published in The Christian Leader in 1989.

Kilarin · Post by **Kilarin** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:37 pm

Lothar wrote:Somebody I know wrote an article about that topic after his sister's murder.

Incredible article, thank you for posting that!

catch22 · Post by **catch22** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:39 pm

Mennonite and Amish are not the same thing. We have a lot in common, but it's misleading to say Mennonites govern Amish or vice versa.

Understood. I could have worded that post better but it was fairly early in the morning and I was tired.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:25 pm

Arm the Admin..

No, I'm not kidding.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:58 am

Bet,

can't you see how twisted your idea actually is? You should do something with your people's minds instead of turning schools into bunker.

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:52 am

Diedel wrote:Bet,

can't you see how twisted your idea actually is?

Ummm... No.

Bee

ccb056 · Post by **ccb056** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:36 pm

I agree, very twisted

Kilarin · Post by **Kilarin** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:29 pm

Diedel wrote:Bet,can't you see how twisted your idea actually is?

I think wanting to defend children is a completely natural response. It's also something that we can't do COMPLETELY without destroying the children. It's all a matter of ballance, and the ballance is hard to find.

To REALLY protect your children from car accidents, you would have to forbid them from ever getting into a vehicle. And that would do the child much more harm than the added measure of safety they would receive. BUT, at the same time, I see parents who let little toddlers wander around in the car without a child safety seat and I just want to beat them.

Exactly where do we draw the line in protecting our children? What is reasonable, and what is going to far? Do you let them climb trees? Do you let them go to the park alone? Do you let them go to summer camp? Do you screen their friends? Do you even go so far as to do background checks on the kids they hang out with?

I think trying to turn schools into defensive bunkers is not only a waste of time and money, but that it will have far more negative affects than beneficial ones. But I completely understand Bettina's desire to do so. We want to protect the children. Learning that we CAN'T protect them in all cases is difficult. Learning that we SHOULDN'T protect them in some cases is even harder.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:19 am

I don't think added security in schools is twisted. I can see why the preference would be \"less insanity in society\" rather than \"more defensive measures\", but considering certain recent events in Berlin, I hope Diedel recognizes that there are stupid, insane, dangerous people in all cultures. Let's do what we can to keep those around us reasonably safe.

I hope he burns in hell for eternity. I hope people find his grave and destroy it.

I think this is twisted. I much prefer the Amish response. Much more in line with \"love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you, do good to those who hate you.\" But Bettina seems to prefer a cartoon god whose wrath she can direct to a Living God whose wrath and mercy are His own.

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:51 pm

Lothar wrote:...I much prefer the Amish response. Much more in line with "love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you, do good to those who hate you."

Not me. I condemn the Amish for turning the other cheek. If my character is measured as a twelve inch ruler it would only go to 11. That last inch is reserved for monsters who get a bullet between the eyes then buried in a landfill.

Lothar wrote:...But Bettina seems to prefer a cartoon god whose wrath she can direct to a Living God whose wrath and mercy are His own.

I was speaking metaphorically as to what you found twisted..... I don't believe in any cartoon God or bible God and never will but you already knew that.

Bee

snoopy · Post by **snoopy** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:40 pm

You don't realize what you're asking for, Bettina. If strict justice is what you want, I dare you to be the first to go to the government and turn yourself in, asking for the harshest punishment possible. (I'm sure you have broken laws- everyone has- there are some awfully rediculous ones.) Character is not shown by always demanding justice, character is shown by knowing when to extend grace. That's on the government's end, and Lothar's point remains valid. You still seem to want to be able to pick and choose which laws you consider worth abiding by (concerning rape, murder, etc.) while you turn a blind eye to other infractions of the law- such as piracy. (I'm not saying you are guilty of piracy, but I havn't seen you crying for those who openly admit that they pirate stuff to be thrown in jail.)

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:01 pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15389779/

Should coaches pack mandatory heat? Anyone else notice that the following question was not asked but why this man brought a gun to his son's football game?

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:48 pm

snoopy wrote:You don't realize what you're asking for, Bettina. If strict justice is what you want, I dare you to be the first to go to the government and turn yourself in, asking for the harshest punishment possible. (I'm sure you have broken laws- everyone has- there are some awfully rediculous ones.) Character is not shown by always demanding justice, character is shown by knowing when to extend grace. That's on the government's end, and Lothar's point remains valid. You still seem to want to be able to pick and choose which laws you consider worth abiding by (concerning rape, murder, etc.) while you turn a blind eye to other infractions of the law- such as piracy. (I'm not saying you are guilty of piracy, but I havn't seen you crying for those who openly admit that they pirate stuff to be thrown in jail.)

Hi Snoopy...

When people on the forums talk about how they pirate music it doesn't bother me a bit because stuff like that pales in comparison to someone who walks into an unguarded school and executes kids because he had a bad day. I know when to extend grace but I will never do it for these monsters, now or ever, and they should all be put to death and cremated.

I have a framed picture of this girl http://www.jmlfoundation.com/ in my room because I relate to her in a big way. There isn't one day that goes by that I don't look at it to remind myself that there is no "Father" upstairs that is going to take care of her or enact His justice when the end of days come, so (IMO), Lothars point carries no weight.

Your not alone in your feelings as you can see from my post in the science forum a year ago. http://www.scienceforums.net/showthread.php?t=8717 I didn't change then and I won't change now, no matter who I offend. Vengence belongs to the mothers and fathers of their dead sons and daughters and they should be allowed to throw the switch if they choose to. Monsters need to be executed.

P.S. I classify a monster as anyone who plans and carries out a kidnapping, rape, and murder of defenseless children. The man in Zurucks post is just crazy and should be locked up for a long time. He is not a monster.

Bettina

ccb056 · Post by **ccb056** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:23 pm

And you have how many years of legal and psychiatric expertise under your belt? Have you actually looked at this guy's case file? Spoken to anyone even remotely related to this incident, or any incident of this nature?

I doubt you, Bettina, are qualified to make any valid judgement in this matter.

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:52 pm

ccb056 wrote:And you have how many years of legal and psychiatric expertise under your belt? Have you actually looked at this guy's case file? Spoken to anyone even remotely related to this incident, or any incident of this nature?

I doubt you, Bettina, are qualified to make any valid judgement in this matter.

I'm not professionally qualified to give an explanation on anything. At least not yet, so I express my opinion instead.

Why... is there something about this guy that I didn't see (from what I read?)

Bettina

Kilarin · Post by **Kilarin** » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:52 pm

Bet51987 wrote:is there something about this guy that I didn't see (from what I read?)

Mainly just that he seemed to have a screw loose. Of course, all of them do, otherwise, they wouldn't be monsters. But this guy showed all the evidence of really being no compos mentis. Which is beside the point since the Amish believe in forgiving even those who have chosen to do evil willingly and are without excuse.

Lets clarify an important point here before it causes some confusion in the discussion. Forgivness does NOT necessarily mean the elimination of the results of your actions. Forgiving a drunk driver does NOT mean you have to give him back his keys. And forgiving a murderer does not mean you have to let him out of jail, or even that you would refuse to implement the death penalty.

Monsters who prey upon children MUST be eliminated as a risk. They should not be walking the streets. But allowing ourselves to be consumed with hate for them doesn't actually do any harm to anyone but ourselves.

Of course, this is a lot easier to say than to do. My reactions are most often much closer to Bettinas than the Amish. I just think they OUGHT to be closer to the Amish.