You must service Obama...or else?

[Bet51987]

Do you think "forcing" kids to learn basic civil defense, among other things, is a bad idea?

Yes, Bet, I do. I don't think anyone should be "forced" to do anything.

Then how do you feel about compulsory school attendance? It's the law that forces children to get some type of education. If you agree with that law, then there shouldn't be any problem forcing the requirement of educating kids on basic civil defense and protection, and how to be prepared in case of a catastrophic event.

If you want to leave that to the parents, then it won't get done for many.

I can't believe so many here are so quick to trash a good idea just because they have some wild consipiracy idea. No wonder nothing gets done.

Bee

[Sergeant Thorne]

There's nothing wild about history repeating itself.

[MD-1118]

There's nothing wild about history repeating itself.

Thorne, that's probably the coolest thing I've ever heard you say.

Then how do you feel about compulsory school attendance? It's the law that forces children to get some type of education. If you agree with that law, then there shouldn't be any problem forcing the requirement of educating kids on basic civil defense and protection, and how to be prepared in case of a catastrophic event.

If you want to leave that to the parents, then it won't get done for many.

I can't believe so many here are so quick to trash a good idea just because they have some wild consipiracy idea. No wonder nothing gets done.

Bee

While I do think it's a good idea that children be educated, I don't think it's a good idea to force people to do something against their will. Though, most children seem to be too immature to make that decision on their own. In this case I would say that yes, the decision should be left to the parents. Whether or not anything gets done is their responsibility, which of course means they are responsible for their own actions. If you think that's a bad idea, then we're obviously on different pages.

Oh, and the reason nothing gets done is because the people who care aren't in a position to do anything, and the people who are in a position to do something don't care. That's how it appears to me, at any rate. =/

[Bet51987]

While I do think it's a good idea that children be educated, I don't think it's a good idea to force people to do something against their will. Though, most children seem to be too immature to make that decision on their own. In this case I would say that yes, the decision should be left to the parents. Whether or not anything gets done is their responsibility, which of course means they are responsible for their own actions. If you think that's a bad idea, then we're obviously on different pages.

Then you believe that educating children should not be compulsory and should be left up to the child's parents. That would be the only way to ensure that nothing is "forced" upon them. Is that what you're saying?

I just want to make sure about those pages.

Bee

[TechPro]

Teaching children the kind of character and values that leads that child to be willing and active with community service should be up to that child's parents. It is their responsibility to the child. It should not be something that is mandated (ie: forced) by the Government, especially because if the Government is what controls it then it will always get corrupted and misused, and the people will always suffer.

History has taught that over and over in EVERY generation.

[MD-1118]

Teaching children the kind of character and values that leads that child to be willing and active with community service should be up to that child's parents. It is their responsibility to the child. It should not be something that is mandated (ie: forced) by the Government, especially because if the Government is what controls it then it will always get corrupted and misused, and the people will always suffer.

History has taught that over and over in EVERY generation.

Thank you. Apparently we're reading the same book.

[TIGERassault]

I'm with Bet on two points:
1: There are many compulsory things set by the government for the greater benefit of people in general, and if done properly, don't backfire as easily as some of you are saying they do. In fact, I'd like to compare this to something along the lines of mandatory recycling; which I have never seen go wrong. And this is the American government, you can't honestly say they've got a reputation for abusing their powers.
2: If left to the parents, not much will be done. I never liked the idea of leaving major decisions up to parents, because it relies on the premise that parents are very wise and understanding people. They're normally not, they're just ordinary people who have a kid.

I also pick up litter along the side of the road and help elderly people take care of their homes and yards. I choose to do it, though. The instant someone tells me I have to do it, they can kiss my ass.

I always wonder why people think an "I'll do it as long as nobody tells me to do it" attitude is supposed to be a good thing.

[flip]

If left to the parents, not much will be done. I never liked the idea of leaving major decisions up to parents, because it relies on the premise that parents are very wise and understanding people. They're normally not, they're just ordinary people who have a kid.

Aside from that being a heavily socialistic ideal (IE.UNAMERICAN) America was founded on ideals that support the free \"individual\". That as long as he was not causing harm to any other, He could do what ever he desired to.Also, I can tell you obviously have no children of your own. They beauty of children is that they cause you to HAVE to be understanding and wise. You should have a couple .

And this is the American government, you can't honestly say they've got a reputation for abusing their powers.

True, but they are definitely gaining the ability to do so.

[flip]

Double Post

[Bet51987]

Thank you. Apparently we're reading the same book.

If you don't want to answer my question then I can only make the obvious assumption which puts us in different books.

Bee

[Spidey]

I understand your analogy between education and community service, and I’m not going to dispute it. But I believe we already have most of the mandatory things we need in this country.

I think it comes down to this.

Do people require an education….Answer…Yes, therefore being mandatory is ok.

Do people need to do public service…Answer…No, therefore being mandatory is not ok.

Just because an idea sounds great, doesn’t mean you have the right to implement that idea, unless it’s something that is absolutely necessary. As is the case of education, and with the current waste situation…recycling.

But, I think the biggest opposition is the probability of abuse.

[Lothar]

I don't think there's anything wrong, in principle, with \"forcing\" people to get an education. Nor do I think there's anything wrong, in principle, with \"forcing\" people to engage in some level of community service.

But there's a huge danger any time you put something like that in the hands of the government, namely, that they get to define what \"education\" or \"community service\" are and can force people to do those things on their terms. How would you like it if the whatever-wing nutjobs were the ones defining what \"education\" or \"community service\" or whatever else means?

Community service is a good idea. Compulsory, government-mandated community service as defined by a particular political party? That's a little bit scary. (And, frankly, I don't think it should be the government's business!)

[Bet51987]

I don't think there's anything wrong, in principle, with "forcing" people to get an education. Nor do I think there's anything wrong, in principle, with "forcing" people to engage in some level of community service.

But there's a huge danger any time you put something like that in the hands of the government, namely, that they get to define what "education" or "community service" are and can force people to do those things on their terms. How would you like it if the whatever-wing nutjobs were the ones defining what "education" or "community service" or whatever else means?

Community service is a good idea. Compulsory, government-mandated community service as defined by a particular political party? That's a little bit scary. (And, frankly, I don't think it should be the government's business!)

You start your post as Lothar and end it like Thunderbunny. I can't believe the mindset of some in this thread who believe that if the United States government required that all middle and high school kids learn CPR and basic civil defense it would be a bad thing for the country.

Unbridled paranoia of NRA magnitude. Be ashamed.

Bee

[MD-1118]

I can't believe the mindset of some in this thread who believe that if the United States government required that all middle and high school kids learn CPR and basic civil defense it would be a bad thing for the country.

Unbridled paranoia of NRA magnitude. Be ashamed.

Bee

It would be a bad thing, Bet, because the government is supposed to service us, not the other way around. And yes, people should be responsible for their own actions. If they want to act irresponsibly, that doesn't mean they are exempt from the consequences. Just because someone isn't doing what someone else thinks they should do doesn't give anyone the right to force them to do otherwise, unless they are physically incapable of making decisions in sound, reasonable judgment. In other words, if you are actually retarded or a vegetable, then I would see the sense in a responsible guardian or other similar individual either assisting in decision making or making decisions for them.

... there may come a day when the NRA and its supporters are the only thing standing between freedom and a neosocialist society. Don't knock them just because some ignorant gun-toting hillbilly is annoying the crap out of you, or whatever the situation may be.

Then you believe that educating children should not be compulsory and should be left up to the child's parents. That would be the only way to ensure that nothing is "forced" upon them. Is that what you're saying?

See above statement. I can only suppose your comment was intended to be "sarcasm" per the "irony".

I always wonder why people think an "I'll do it as long as nobody tells me to do it" attitude is supposed to be a good thing.

Why shouldn't it be? I have no problem with doing most things, even if it means going the extra mile or two. What I don't appreciate is other people dictating my actions as if I didn't have the ability to do so myself.

[dissent]

You start your post as Lothar and end it like Thunderbunny. I can't believe the mindset of some in this thread who believe that if the United States government required that all middle and high school kids learn CPR and basic civil defense it would be a bad thing for the country.

Unbridled paranoia of NRA magnitude. Be ashamed.

Bee

Education is compulsory because it is helps to populace participate gainfully in the democratic process.

Frankly, if I ever need CPR, I don't want some complete amateur or poor student doing on me. Now, a volunteer who is motivated to learn it well, keep up their training over time, etc., that's an entirely different matter. We should give more people the incentives to do this.

Bee, can you fill me in on what now constitutes "civil defense training"? I know what it was back in the '60's; I'm sure it has changed.

[Xamindar]

Wow Bet51987, your posts in any thread I read on these forums really scare me. I'm so glad you aren't leading the government.

[Bet51987]

Wow Bet51987, your posts in any thread I read on these forums really scare me. I'm so glad you aren't leading the government.

Everything?

Bee

[TechPro]

I can't believe the mindset of some in this thread who believe that if the United States government required that all middle and high school kids learn CPR and basic civil defense it would be a bad thing for the country.

Unbridled paranoia of NRA magnitude. Be ashamed.

Bee

Bee, since did learning CPR and basic civil defense become "community service"? Learning CPR and basic civil defense is simply education in case a person encounters an emergency.

We're talking about the concept of Government mandated compulsory "community service", which is the same as Government mandated compulsory work in the community. CPR and basic civil defense is NOT work.

Having the kids learn CPR while in Middle School and High School is a good thing for society in general for the health and well being of all. Learning basic civil defense is also good to learn just like learning how to drive safely is a good thing.

Being forced to work, by the Government, without compensation is the same a slavery. Always has been, always will be. Doesn't matter how well meaning the original intent was, that is what it always becomes.

That kind of forced labor should be reserved for incarcerated criminals.

[Bet51987]

....Having the kids learn CPR while in Middle School and High School is a good thing for society in general for the health and well being of all. Learning basic civil defense is also good to learn just like learning how to drive safely is a good thing.

Thank you. This is all I've been saying in this entire thread. I want basic civil defense, CPR, and other life saving teqniques to be a mandatory requirement of all middle and high school students. This is a very light version of what Obama wants and yet many (not all) here think it's a bad idea because of the mandatory label. Review the thread and see. I'm just shocked at the mentality. I really am.

Being forced to work, by the Government, without compensation is the same a slavery. Always has been, always will be. Doesn't matter how well meaning the original intent was, that is what it always becomes.

I agree but in the case of college students Obama was giving them $4000 toward their college tuition for 100 hours of service. That's far from working for nothing and I still think it's a good idea though I'm not as strong about it as I am for middle and high school students.

I know I'm getting the socialist label attached to me and it does bother me a little but my church community doesn't think of me that way and that's all that matters to me.

Bee

[Lothar]

I can't believe the mindset of some in this thread who believe that if the United States government required that all middle and high school kids learn CPR and basic civil defense it would be a bad thing for the country.

I think both CPR and emergency management training are good things. I don't think the government needs to be involved in making them "mandatory". Available? Sure. Mandatory? I don't see any good reason for that, and again, I want to limit the amount of things the government requires of the people. Government is, by definition, other people telling you what to do.

in the case of college students Obama was giving them $4000 toward their college tuition for 100 hours of service.

Being "not mandatory" is a step in the right direction. Adding yet more government spending is a step in the wrong direction.

Also, keep in mind that one of the reasons college tuition is so high is that the government keeps pumping money into the system. When you decouple the real costs of something from the consumers, prices tend to go up (see also: health care.)

[Bet51987]

I think both CPR and emergency management training are good things. I don't think the government needs to be involved in making them "mandatory". Available? Sure. Mandatory? I don't see any good reason for that, and again, I want to limit the amount of things the government requires of the people. Government is, by definition, other people telling you what to do.

Your reasoning fails. Requiring mandatory learning of CPR (for an example) for ALL middle and high school kids would increase the chances that a child in a playground can save his choking friend instead of belonging to a school where it wasn't required.

People who think like that are the same people who think like this..

http://www.petitiononline.com/banS1993/petition.html

Unfortunately a lot of really good laws, like requiring children under a certain age to wear helmets when on a bycyle, are being shot down because of stupid paranoia.

Again...be ashamed.

Bee

[Lothar]

Bettina,

Argue your point, not my character. Chill with the cheap shots.

-----

...increase the chances that a child in a playground can save his choking friend...

True, but insufficient.

My reasoning doesn't \"fail\". My reasoning demonstrates a difference in priorities. Don't mistake one for the other.

[Bet51987]

Bettina,

Argue your point, not my character. Chill with the cheap shots.

Sorry I got testy but to be clear your character has always been impeccable, at least to me.

...increase the chances that a child in a playground can save his choking friend...

True, but insufficient.

My reasoning doesn't "fail". My reasoning demonstrates a difference in priorities. Don't mistake one for the other.

I don't know what you mean by priority, in this case, and I'm not about to put words in your mouth but as far as reasoning... I gave you a good reason to make CPR training mandatory for all middle and high school students (vs not having any training) and I would like to have a more reasonable answer.... Please

Bettina

[Spidey]

Face it, the people on the left think we are stupid, plain and simple, and insults are a result of that thought process.

Continue the logic, we should have gun safety in school, because that would help prevent all those accidents where children shoot themselves.

[Sergeant Thorne]

How about that while CPR is great it doesn't mean it needs to be mandatory? Just convince your local school (or others) that it's important enough to institute, like we are all free people. What's the problem? Free--like no one ruling over us. Get it?

[Jesus Freak]

No middle schooler should know CPR. It 1. rarely works, 2. is too hard to remember correctly, 3. is difficult to know when to do it, and 4. I'm not sure middle schoolers have the strength, both physically and emotionally, to do an operation that usually breaks bones.

I speak as someone who was once a trained and certified life guard.

[MD-1118]

No middle schooler should know CPR. It 1. rarely works, 2. is too hard to remember correctly, 3. is difficult to know when to do it, and 4. I'm not sure middle schoolers have the strength, both physically and emotionally, to do an operation that usually breaks bones.

I speak as someone who was once a trained and certified life guard.

Correct, which correlates with my previous statement concerning maturity and the ability to make a rational, sound, responsible decision.

[Cuda68]

I find most middle schoolers are morons, and I mean most. Over %50 of them are more intersted in the social life than anything else. If anyone, including the Government, wants to put out any kind of effort or money in these kids it should be in subjects that they should know and not specialized education/skills.

[Bet51987]

This past summer was my last year working at the park pool. I'm not going to have the time off anymore but I did it for four years with the last two years as one of four certified pool lifeguards. I also have my infant and child CPR and first-aid certificate and I taught CPR basics to elementary, middle and upper class students who had permission.

It's obvious that a child won't have the strength to perform CPR on an adult but they won't have a problem with another child or teenager.

http://www.ketv.com/family/3657959/detail.html

http://bcbsma.medscape.com/viewarticle/555888

Bettina

[dissent]

Not to mention the fact that the first thing that someone should do in a CPR situation is to make sure that they, or someone else, has gone to contact emergency services personnel.

Then, and only then, should they make an assessment of the situation to see if CPR is warranted. I think just about any middle schooler could be taught to go notify the emergency authorities in an emergency situation. I think it is the rare middle schooler indeed who could, in an actual situation, assess the need for CPR and then administer it appropriately.

I could see where you would make it a part of a health class or something similar in a middle school setting. I expect middle schoolers could be exposed to the biology and principles of CPR, but I don't think they should be expected to master its practice.

[MD-1118]

Really, the only situation in which a child or adolescent would be qualified to administer CPR would be a situation in which said child or adolescent is the only one in a position to do anything of help for the victim, or as a stopgap measure. Schools have nurses, and I think they're much more qualified to administer medical attention than your typical child or adolescent. There's also all kinds of faculty, staff and other adults, out of whom I'm sure at least a few have rudimentary medical training. Besides, as dissent says, the most important thing is to contact emergency services personnel.

[Bet51987]

Wow Bet51987, your posts in any thread I read on these forums really scare me. I'm so glad you aren't leading the government.

I sent you a PM a few days ago and didn't get a reply. This bothers me and I want to talk about it. I don't bite.

Bee

[woodchip]

Wow Bet51987, your posts in any thread I read on these forums really scare me. I'm so glad you aren't leading the government.

I sent you a PM a few days ago and didn't get a reply. This bothers me and I want to talk about it. I don't bite.

Bee

Really?

[Spidey]

Woody knows better…

He has the marks to prove it...

[Bet51987]

Xamindar doesn't have to worry. I promise I will be more like this...



Instead of the other me.... which was the last thing Kilarin saw walking toward him when he fell out of his mortar damaged ship.




Bee

[Spidey]

Lol, I played you many times in Stadium, Bee, and I can’t recall any such pluck.

[Sergeant Thorne]

ahh-hahahaa! Someone's residual self-image giving them heirs, Bee?

(don't feel bad, I do it too...)

[Foil]

Ah, an idea for a light-hearted new thread topic: \"Post your 'residual self-image'\" Maybe these first few could be split out by a moderator?

(I think you guys could guess mine.)

[MD-1118]

Ah, an idea for a light-hearted new thread topic: "Post your 'residual self-image'" Maybe these first few could be split out by a moderator?

(I think you guys could guess mine.)

You'll never guess mine in a thousand years.

I think it's an interesting idea, though.

[Bet51987]

Well, Xamindar won't answer my PM so I will ask again here. Xamindar, will you please PM me and give me some type of explanation?

Bee