Moderators: Tunnelcat, Jeff250
your correct I was in Error. trying to slam out too much information in too short a timeflip wrote:Sry Cuda got to take you to task on this one. Moses was referring to himself when he said "like me". In the sense as being a prophet and intercessor just as he was.God says I will raise up a prophet like me (God) from among the Jews
making for a difficult task 
I don't have any practicing Jewish friends, so I took the next best step and looked up Deuteronomy 18:15, the prophecy you mention later in your post, in the Jewish Study Bible, something that seems reasonable for any of my potential Jewish friends to use to study. The commentary in the margins doesn't say anything about a Messiah except when rejecting the "much later Jewish reinterpretation that was accepted by the Christian church."CUDA wrote:I already told you how we know they are Messianic Prophecies. do you have any Orthodox Jews friends? ask one of them. these are the Prophecies they they have been looking towards for 3000 years.
The problems that I have with your examples are quite general. There's (1) the weaker problem that presented itself again in our discussion above of the prophecies not being clearly messianic, or in other cases not even being clearly prophecies (e.g. poems). In general, there's too much vagueness and plausible deniability for the prophecies to be powerful.CUDA wrote:if I need to go on I will, but these are pretty plain language
Of the ones that we have quotes in this thread:flip wrote:At the same time I would like to confirm how many non-biblical sources also mention a great earthquake happening at the very same time also.
As far as I can tell, when Julius Africanus says, "For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day..." he is assuming that the eclipse happened on that day from the biblical account that records it on that day, not from any external source.flip wrote:I would also like to know for sure if a eclipse is possible or not during a full moon. If not, then the darkness that every one records has to be attributed to something else.
taken individually Maybe, taken as a whole, not possibleJeff250 wrote:The problems that I have with your examples are quite general. There's (1) the weaker problem that presented itself again in our discussion above of the prophecies not being clearly messianic, or in other cases not even being clearly prophecies (e.g. poems). In general, there's too much vagueness and plausible deniability for the prophecies to be powerful.
the problem your facing is your belief in the Historicity of the Bible, that is something that I believe Flip is working on. most of the NT Bible was written within a short span after Christ's death and resurrection as first hand accounts. they are no different than any history book written shortly after WW2 about the holocaust. but as you see now there are already people denying it ever happened. so ask your self in 2000 years if we did not have film would the accounts be taken as truth or as a myth. and this is a world wide event. in General terms, Christ was a Nobody for his day. he was just a Rabbi, who never left a 70 mile radius, in an area that was of minor importance to the world. in an era before facebook.There's also (2) the stronger problem of trying to use the second half of your book to "prove" the first half. It's circular. You have to show evidence that these events actually happened historically outside of the Bible. I concede that the New Testament authors *wrote* *down* that alleged Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled. But showing that they actually happened is another thing.
so what your saying is that your much like the people that don't believe Obama was born in the US and want me to produce a birth certificate. sorry cant do that. stop looking at them as an individual prophesyThere's also another problem (3) that any of the Messiah "imitators" at the time would no doubt be running around actively try to fulfill anything that they thought was a messianic prophecy. Any prophecy that could be easily *intentionally* "fulfilled" isn't very powerful either.
Before Thomas saw the risen Christ, he would not believe the report of the other disciples who said they saw Him alive. But then Jesus appeared to Thomas as well, and he believed. Jesus told Thomas, “Because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed.” (John 20:29)
It’s important to note that “believed” is in the aorist tense. Contrary to popular interpretation, Jesus is not referring to those in the future who would believe He rose from the dead without having seen Him alive, but to those in the past who believed He rose from the dead without having seen Him alive. This is important to the discussion we have had on this blog about why the disciples waited so long to proclaim Jesus’ resurrection. For Jesus to say there were people in the past who believed in His resurrection without having seen Him alive requires that the apostles/disciples were proclaiming the resurrection prior to Pentecost! If they had not been proclaiming the resurrection, no one except for those to whom Jesus had appeared to would believe in His resurrection. Of course, we don’t know how many people the disciples told about the risen Christ, or who they told (only previous followers of Jesus, or unbelievers as well), but this passage is evidence that the disciples did not wait until after Pentecost to begin proclaiming the resurrection. That proclamation only intensified and widened after Pentecost.
While the direct object of Jesus’ words were past believers, the principle is equally applicable to future believers. It’s as though John is using Jesus’ words to Thomas to speak to skeptics who argue, “It was all very well for Thomas to believe given His experience with the risen Christ, but you can’t expect me to imitate that kind of faith unless I have the same kind of experience/evidence Thomas had.” John counters this argument by pointing out that there were individuals before Thomas who believed without experiencing what Thomas experienced, and Jesus considered them blessed for having done so. Empirical evidence is not necessary for faith in Christ’s resurrection.
This passage is often used by those who oppose apologetic arguments for the resurrection of Christ. They argue that if God’s blessing is given to those who believe in Jesus’ resurrection without seeing, then not only are apologetic arguments in behalf of Christ’s resurrection unnecessary for evangelism, they actually rob people of the blessing that comes through faith. This is a misinterpretation of the passage. Jesus did not say, “Blessed are those who believe without evidence,” but rather, “Blessed are those who have not seen me and yet believe.” He is not pronouncing a blessing on those who believed in His resurrection without any reason to do so, but those who believed without actually seeing Him alive in the flesh; He is not pronouncing a blessing on those who believe without any evidence for believing, but those who believe without empirical evidence like Thomas had. While we have many reasons to believe Jesus rose from the dead, we are doing so without having actually seen Jesus, and thus we are blessed
Basically we all know right from wrong because it's ingrained into us. People who have never heard of Jesus, by this statement , can still be saved if they choose good. Logistics and reality prevented everyone from hearing so provisions were made by a merciful and loving God. Who here doesn't realize that HIS hands are tied because he gave us not just free will, but free reign? He gave us to be the rulers of the seen, natural world and HE'S no indian giver. It's our choices that put us where we end up, not HIS.For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
If you can do this, I'd be interested in seeing it, as your argument hinges upon it. Until then though, all of the historical evidence in this thread points to a solar eclipse, with some Christians in the second century questioning the historical account because of religious reasons.flip wrote:NoNoNo, there's more sources that can pinpoint the day. I left that as a granted,for the sake of argument, but I do perceive that you are an honest seeker of truth's. I'm pretty sure that I can propose a accurate date using the same methods and data as any other historian would use.
I'm trying to use the benchmark that you gave me. You said that you know that they were messianic prophecies because the Jews have been waiting for them to come true for 3000 years. But, to repeat my experiment, when I look up Psalm 22 in the Jewish Study Bible:CUDA wrote:taken individually Maybe, taken as a whole, not possible
I just treat the New Testament with the same amount of skepticism that you treat the Koran or the Book of Mormon, which are allegedly first-hand, recent accounts of miraculous events as well.CUDA wrote:the problem your facing is your belief in the Historicity of the Bible, that is something that I believe Flip is working on. most of the NT Bible was written within a short span after Christ's death and resurrection as first hand accounts. they are no different than any history book written shortly after WW2 about the holocaust.
No. It's not sufficient that all three of my explanations have to apply to every "prophecy." It's only sufficient that at least one does. Obviously, not all three will apply to every one, and all you've done is identify some where the third doesn't apply. (I think that the second covers most though.)CUDA wrote:so what your saying is that your much like the people that don't believe Obama was born in the US and want me to produce a birth certificate. sorry cant do that. stop looking at them as an individual prophesy
lets take just 2 of them
If your post had a higher signal to troll ratio, then we would know what you were referring to. Maybe this: That the more falsifiable (or risky) a prophecy is the more convincing it is when it checks out, just like the more falsifiable a scientific theory is the more convincing it is when it checks out. But this is obvious. A prophecy that can be interpreted to mean anything or makes an easily fulfilled prediction isn't as impressive when it checks out as one that is clearly written and makes a prediction that is specific, unlikely, and cannot be intentionally fulfilled. You can make a similar statement about scientific theories. Doesn't everyone agree with this?Behemoth wrote:So it look's like we have an expert in the field of prophecy, seriously?
Yeah, one possibility is that the New Testament authors decided to include and embellish the historical eclipse in their story, knowing that one happened around that time. Another thing to consider is that even if everything did happen as described in the New Testament, it's still possible that Phlogen and the other historians recorded an unrelated, naturally occurring solar eclipse (especially since the New Testament never calls it a solar eclipse), but then you would wonder why no one else recorded the darkness that the New Testament describes.flip wrote:Ok so we're in agreement there was an eclipse and you dispute that the day cannot be pinpointed? Meaning, that on some day different than when Christ was crucified there was a solar eclipse and then somehow the 2 days got confused as the same? I'm just trying to get a handle here on exactly what your disputing.
I don't know, but it makes me nervous if you have to ask.flip wrote:Another thing, just how discriminatory do I have to be regarding my sources that you would accept them?
Who's to say they didn't? Alot of earlier works got destroyed by people of different opinions and alot of history depends on one historian quoting another where the original text has been lost. Shaky ground IMHO.then you would wonder why no one else recorded the darkness that the New Testament describes.
Can we agree that this would generally be accepted as a legitimate historical document useful for dating historical events?His chief work was the Olympiads, an historical compendium in sixteen books, from the 1st down to the 229th Olympiad (776 BC to AD 137), of which several chapters are preserved in Eusebius' Chronicle, Photius and George Syncellus.
These were supposed to be first hand accounts. In my experience, even a liar dislikes another liar and usually lies of this magnitude are found out right away. Any unbelieving person would have jumped at the chance and had those boys tarred and feathered. Unlikely they could have forged such a clever deception and then leave themselves that open to being discredited.New Testament authors decided to include and embellish the historical eclipse in their story, knowing that one happened around that time
all the Psalms are poems. doesn't mean they aren't also Prophesy'sJeff wrote:when I look up Psalm 22 in the Jewish Study Bible:
http://books.google.com/books?id=aDuy3p5QvEYC&pg=PA1305
They see it as a poem
this seems like the account of the Crucifixion described in the NT1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the LORD,” they say,
“let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.
19 But you, LORD, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you[f] I will fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!
The Qur'an states Jesus the Son of Mary (Arabic: Isa ibn Maryum) was the Messiah or "Prophet" sent to the Jews,[Qur'an 3:45] and Muslims believe Jesus is alive in Heaven and will return to Earth to defeat the Antichrist (Arabic: Dajjal).[5]
A hadith in Abu Dawud (37:4310) says:
Narrated Abu Hurayrah: The Prophet said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus. He will descend (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish hair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill the swine, and put an end to war (in another Tradition, there is the word Jizyah instead of Harb (war), meaning that he will abolish jizyah); God will perish all religions except Islam. He [Jesus] will destroy the Antichrist whom will live on the earth for forty days and then he will die. The Muslims will pray behind him.
Isaiah 9:5 (9:6)
Christians believe that this verse refers to the birth of Jesus as the Messiah. The verse reads:
For a child is born to us,
A son is given to us;
Dominion will rest on his shoulders,
And he will be given the name
Pele-Yo'etz El Gibbor [Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God,]
Avi-'Ad Sar-Shalom. [Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace] (CJB)
The word translated "wonderful" is actually a noun, meaning a "wonder". Another translation of that phrase would be "A wonder, a counselor is the mighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace." Like the name "Immanuel," this name would describe God, not the person who carries the name. The word "is", is usually not stated in Hebrew. Rather,"is" is understood. For example, the words "hakelev" (the dog) and "gadol" (big), when joined into a sentence "hakelev gadol" means "the dog is big," even though no Hebrew word in that sentence represents the word "is." On the other hand, the Hebrew word "hu" (meaning he) is often used similarly to the word "is", so to say "A wonder, a counselor, is the mighty God..." one would probably say "Pele yo`ets hu el gibor...", inserting the word "hu". In any case, if this "name" is actually a sentence, it is a rather unnatural sentence by the standards of Biblical Hebrew.[citation needed]
This long name is the throne name of the royal child. Semitic names often consist of sentences that describe God; thus the name Isaiah in Hebrew means "Yahweh saves"; Hezekiah, "Yahweh strengthens"; in Akkadian, the name of the Babylonian king M'rodakh-Bal'adan (39:1) means "Marduk has provided an heir." These names do not describe that person who holds them but the god whom the parents worship.[3]
This verse is expressly applied to the Messiah in the Targum, and there is a very curious comment in Debarim R. 1 (ed. Warsh., p. 4a) in connection with a Haggadic discussion of Genesis 43:14, which, however fanciful, makes a Messianic application of this passage - also in Bemidbar R. 11.[4]
Isaiah 11:12
And he shall set up a banner for the nations,
and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel,
and gather together the dispersed of Judah
from the four corners of the earth.
Some commentators view this as an unfulfilled prophecy, arguing that the Jewish people have not all been gathered in Israel.[5] Some Christians refer to the foundation of the State of Israel as fulfillment of this prophecy.[6]
However, the majority of Christians believe that Jesus as the Messiah brings all nations to himself (cf. 11:10 Nations will seek his counsel / And his abode will be honored.) as Jesus said in John 12:32 ("And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.") and as Paul acknowledges in Romans 15:12 when he quotes Isaiah 11:10, which emphasize the inclusion of the Gentiles into the people of God along with the Jews.[7]
Christians also believe that Isaiah 2:2 is to be understood in connection with Isaiah 11:10,12.
In the days to come,
The Mount of the Lord’s house
Shall stand firm above the mountains
And tower above the hills;
And all the nations
Shall gaze on it with joy.
Christians believe that Jesus the Messiah is the ultimate "house" or dwelling place of God, as is told in John 1:14 (And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory) and 2:19-21 (Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” But he was speaking about the temple of his body.). Through him the messianic community becomes a temple in 1 Corinthians 3:16 (Do you not know that you all are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?) and Ephesians 2:20-22 (...built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, the Messiah Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.) . It is through the Messiah's exaltation all nations are drawn to him, as in Luke 24:47 ("...and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.").[7]
Isaiah 53:5
Main article: Isaiah 53
Isaiah 53 is probably the most famous example claimed to be a messianic prophecy fulfilled by Jesus. It speaks of one known as the "suffering servant," who suffers because of the sins of others. Jesus is said to fulfill this prophecy through his death on the cross.[8] The following verse from Isaiah 53:5 is understood by Christians to speak of Jesus as the Messiah:
5But he was wounded because of our crimes,
Crushed because of our sins;
the disciplining that makes us whole fell on him,
and by his bruises we are healed. (CJB)
Modern Jewish scholars, as well as the Bible commentator Rashi (1040–1105), argue that the suffering servant is actually Israel.[9] Several Christian apologetic books, such as the Oxford Study Edition Bible, The Revised Standard Version, also identify Isaiah 53 as speaking of the nation of Israel. New Revised Standard Version and New English Bible also follow this interpretation. Among other reasons, this is because the nation of Israel is called "servant" several times in the book of Isaiah.
Jews for Judaism founder Rabbi Bentzion Kravitz, in his book "The Jewish Response To Missionaries," has attempted to demonstrate that the Isaiah 53 passage is purposely mistranslated in Christian Bibles to support theological concepts. He maintains that the original Hebrew portrays a different picture. For example, the preposition "mi" in Isaiah 53:5 and 53:8 is commonly translated as "for." The meaning of "mi" is not "for" but rather "from" or "because of". Thus the Judaica Press Tanach translates Isaiah 53:5 as: "But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed." Other examples of translation errors are Isaiah 53:8 where the Hebrew phrase "mi-pesha’ ‘ami niga’ lamo" is translated as "for the transgression of my people was he stricken". The word "lamo" is the poetic form of the Hebrew "lahem" which means their/them not him and is used as such throughout the Hebrew Bible. The Jewish rendition of Isaiah 53:8 then is: "because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them." Based on this, the servant is argued to be a collective entity not a person. This claim is supported by the fact that the Hebrew word for "death" in the following verse of Isaiah 53:9, "And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death;" is plural.
Again, the very nature of prophecies may intertwine between pluralistic and the singular, clearly, from the beginning of the chapter, "he, hoo" was utilized inferring a singular person without any doubt and not a nation. When "kole, kole" was used only then we clearly have plurals referring to the Nations, including the Jewish Nation. To understand where it refers to the singular and where the plural, one has to read the chapter almost in its entirety.
However, in some of the most ancient Jewish writings, Isaiah 53:5 is applied to the Messiah. The verse is Messianically interpreted in the Midrash on Samuel,[10] where it is said that all sufferings are divided into three parts, one of which the Messiah bore - a remark which is brought into connection with Ruth 2:14. On Ruth 2:14 (When meal-time came, Bo'az said to her, "Come here, have some of the meal, and dip your morsel in the vinegar."), the Midr. R. Ruth 5,[11] has a very remarkable interpretation. Besides the application of the word 'eat,' as beyond this present time, to the days of the Messiah, and again to the world to come, which is to follow these days, the Midrash applies the whole of it mystically to the Messiah, viz. 'Come here,' that is, draw near to the kingdom, 'have some of the meal,' that is, the bread of royalty, 'and dip your morsel in vinegar' - these are the sufferings, as it is written in Isaiah 53:5, 'He was wounded for our transgression.' Comp. Midr. on Song of Songs 2:9; Pesik. 49 a, b. Again, the words, 'she ate, and was sufficed, and left,' are thus interpreted in Shabb. 113 b: she ate - in this world; and was sufficed - in the days of the Messiah; and left - for the world to come.
Also, Psalm 2:6 is applied to the Messiah in the Midrash on 1 Samuel 16:1,[12] where it is said that of the three measures of sufferings one goes to the King Messiah, of whom it is written (Isaiah 53:5) 'He was wounded for our transgression.' They say to the King Messiah: Where do you seek to dwell? He answers: Is this question also necessary? In Zion My holy hill.[13]
Zechariah 12:10
Zechariah 12:10 is another verse commonly cited by Christian authors as a messianic prophecy fulfilled in Jesus as interpreted by the Gospel writers.[14]
“...and they will look to me, whom they pierced.” They will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son; they will be in bitterness on his behalf like the bitterness for a firstborn son. (CJB)
In some of the most ancient Jewish writings, Zechariah 12:10 is applied to the Messiah the son of Joseph in the Talmud,[15] and so is verse 12 (The land will wail, each family by itself: The family of the House of David by themselves, and their women by themselves; the family of the House of Nathan by themselves, and their women by themselves), there being, however, a difference of opinion whether the mourning is caused by the death of the Messiah the son of Joseph, or else on account of the evil concupiscence (Yetser haRa).
The Gospel writers make reference to this prophecy when referring to the crucifixion of Jesus, as can be seen in the following account from the book of John: The soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man who had been put on a stake beside Yeshua, then the legs of the other one; but when they got to Yeshua and saw that he was already dead, they didn't break his legs. However, one of the soldiers stabbed his side with a spear, and at once blood and water flowed out . . . For these things happened in order to fulfill this passage of the Tanakh: "Not one of his bones will be broken." And again, another passage says, "They will look at him whom they have pierced." (John 19:32-37).
Zechariah 9:9
Christian authors have interpreted Zechariah 9:9 as a prophecy of an act of messianic self-humiliation.[16]
Rejoice with all your heart, daughter of Tziyon!
Shout out loud, daughter of Yerushalayim!
Look! Your king is coming to you.
He is righteous, and he is victorious -
Humble and riding on an ass,
On a colt the foal of an ass. (CJB)
The Gospel of John links this verse to the account of Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem: They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Deliver us!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD, the King of Isra'el!" After finding a donkey colt, Yeshua mounted it, just as the Tanakh says - "Daughter of Tziyon, don't be afraid! Look! your King is coming, sitting on a donkey's colt." (John 12:13-15). The Synoptic Gospels make clear that Jesus arranged this event, thus consciously fulfilling the prophecy.[17]
The Gospel of Matthew describes Jesus' triumphant entry on Palm Sunday as a fulfillment of this verse in Zechariah. Matthew describes the prophecy in terms of a colt and a separate donkey, whereas the original only mentions the colt. The gospels of Mark, Luke, and John state Jesus sent his disciples after only one animal.[18] Critics claim this is a contradiction with some mocking the idea of Jesus riding two animals at the same time. A response is that the text allows for Jesus to have ridden on a colt that was accompanied by a donkey, perhaps its mother.[19] It may also be interpreted that the second line describes more specifically that the ass (donkey) he is riding is a young male offspring of an ass (donkey).
In the most ancient Jewish writings Zechariah 9:9 is applied to the Messiah. According to the Talmud, so firm was the belief in the ass on which the Messiah is to ride that “if anyone saw an ass in his dream, he will see salvation”.[20] The verse is also Messianically quoted in Sanh. 98 a, in Pirqé de R. Eliez. c. 31, and in several of the Midrashim.
Micah 5:2
A section near the end of Micah's prophecy on the Babylonian captivity (Micah 5:2) has been interpreted by Christian apologists as a messianic prophecy that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.[21]
But you, Beit-Lechem near Efrat, so small among the clans of Y'hudah, out of you will come forth to me the future ruler of Isra'el, whose origins are far in the past, back in ancient times. (CJB)
The verse describes the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb's second wife, Ephrathah. (1 Chr. 2:18, 2:50-52, 4:4) Bethlehem Ephrathah is the town and clan from which king David was born,[22] and this passage refers to the future birth of a new Davidic heir.[23] Although the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke give different accounts of the birth of Jesus, both place the birth in Bethlehem.[24] The Gospel of Matthew account describes Herod the Great asking the chief priests and scribes of Jerusalem where the Messiah was to be born; they respond by quoting the passage from Micah: "In Beit-Lechem of Y'hudah," they replied, "because the prophet wrote, 'And you, Beit-Lechem in the land of Y'hudah, are by no means the least among the rulers of Y'hudah; for from you will come a Ruler who will shepherd my people Isra'el.'" (Matthew 2:4-6)
Many modern scholars consider the birth stories as inventions by the Gospel writers, created to glorify Jesus and present his birth as the fulfilment of prophecy.[25][26] However since the birth in Bethlehem is one of the few common elements in the Gospel accounts, some scholars believe that both writers were drawing on an existing Christian tradition.[27]
The idea that Bethlehem was to be the birthplace of the Messiah appears in no Jewish source before the 4th century C.E.[28] Jewish tradition appears to have emphasised the idea that the birthplace of the Messiah was not known.[29]
Haggai 2:6-9
"6 For this is what ADONAI-Tzva'ot says: "It won't be long before one more time I will shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land; 7 and I will shake all the nations, so that the treasures of all the nations will flow in; and I will fill this house with glory," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot. 8 "The silver is mine, and the gold is mine," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot. 9 "The glory of this new house will surpass that of the old," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot, "and in this place I will grant shalom," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot.'" (CJB)
The Second Temple was to be filled with the glory of God and it's glory would be superior to Solomon's temple despite the missing artifacts and the absence of sacred fire (God initially lighting up the altar Himself). For Christians, this prophecy is fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth being present and teaching in Herod's renovated temple and peace being granted by God for mankind in that place through the tearing of the veil of the Holy of Holies upon Christ's death. Furthermore, if Haggai's prophecy is to be held as true, it must have been accomplished before 70 AD since the Romans destroyed the 2nd temple at that time.
Ezekiel 37:26-27
I will make a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting covenant. I will give to them, increase their numbers, and set my Sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. (CJB)
The "dwelling place" (Hebrew mishkan) recalls the wilderness tabernacle. The Sanctuary (Hebrew miqdash) points rather to the Temple, in particular the renewed Temple, which will occupy Ezekiel's attention in the last ch.s of 40-48. The group Jews for Judaism have said this in response to this prophetic passage: "At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!"[5]
Christianity believes that Ezekiel's Temple is more glorious than the Tabernacle of Moses (Exodus 25-40) and the Temple of Solomon (1 Kings 5-8), pointing forward to several beliefs:
(1) the glory in which God dwells with man in the Messiah (John 1:14 The Word became a human being and lived with us, and we saw his Sh'khinah (CJB));
(2) The Messiah's body is the Temple (John 2:19-21 Yeshua answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again." The Judeans said, "It took 46 years to build this Temple, and you're going to raise it in three days?" But the "temple" he had spoken of was his body. (CJB));
(3) the messianic community as the Temple (1 Corinthians 3:16 Don't you know that you people are God's Temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?, Ephesians 2:20-22 You have been built on the foundation of the emissaries and the prophets, with the cornerstone being Yeshua the Messiah himself. In union with him the whole building is held together, and it is growing into a holy temple in union with the Lord. Yes, in union with him, you yourselves are being built together into a spiritual dwelling-place for God!, 1 Peter 2:5 ...you yourselves, as living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be cohanim set apart for God to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to him through Yeshua the Messiah. (CJB));
(4) the body of the individual believer (1 Corinthians 6:19 Or don't you know that your body is a Temple for the Ruach HaKodesh who lives inside you, whom you received from God? The fact is, you don't belong to yourselves (CJB));
(5) the heavenly Jerusalem (Revelation 21:9-22:5)[7]
Judaism holds that the Messiah has not yet arrived namely because of the belief that the Messianic Age has not started yet. Jews believe that the Messiah will completely change life on earth and that pain and suffering will be conquered, thus initiating the Kingdom of God and the Messianic Age on earth. Contrary to the Christian belief that the Kingdom of God is not worldly, most Jews hold that the Kingdom of God will be on earth. Jews hold that life on earth after Jesus has not changed profoundly enough for him to be considered the Messiah.[citation needed]
While Christians have cited the following as prophecies referencing the life, status, and legacy of Jesus, Jewish scholars maintain that these passages are not messianic prophecies and are based on mistranslations/misunderstanding of the Hebrew texts.[30]
Deuteronomy 18:15
Deuteronomy 18 is one of the earliest prophecies which speaks of a prophet who would be raised up from among the Jewish nation.
15 "The LORD will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. You are to pay attention to him . . . 18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I order him." (CJB)
Evangelical Christians claim that in the first century C.E., Jews expected a final prophet.[31] The Gospel of John states that the Jews of Jesus' time asked John the Baptist if he were the prophet described in this verse (John 1:19-22), and that he denied it. In Acts 3:18-22, Peter claimed that Jesus was the fulfillment of this promise. All Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, as stated in Qur'an numerous times, though not a god-man. Jewish sources record that the age of prophecy ended with the "men of the great assembly," approximately 400 years before Jesus time [Talmud, Yoma 69b]
[edit] Verses read as Davidic line prophecies
Main article: Davidic dynasty in Bible prophecy
Daniel 9:24-27
Main article: Prophecy of Seventy Weeks
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." - Daniel 9:24-27 (Authorized Version 1611)
Some Christians interpret the phrase that the Messiah "would be cut off, but not for himself" as meaning that he would be killed for someone else and take this as being fulfilled by the crucifixion of Jesus. According to these Christians, the references to “most holy”, "anointed" and "prince" speak of Jesus, while the phrase “anointed shall be cut off” points to his crucifixion, and the “people of the prince who is to come” are the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70.[32]
In the Gospel of Mark, Jesus refers to the “horrible abomination” or “abomination of desolation,” (Mark 13:14) and the Gospel of Matthew adds a direct reference to this as being from the Book of Daniel (Matthew 24: 15): “So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel…” In this interpretation, the abomination was the Roman army, which had surrounded and destroyed Jerusalem.[citation needed].
The general scholarly view[33][34] is that Daniel is writing a contemporaneous account of the Maccabean Revolt c. 167 BCE and the "cutting off of an anointed one" (9:26)— refers to the murder of the legitimate high priest Onias III; the abomination that causes desolation refers to Antiochus IV erecting a statue of Zeus in the Temple, the final straw breaking the uneasy coexistence of the traditionalist Jews and the more Hellenized Jews. This view is also supported by the Jewish Encyclopedia[35] as the well the Roman Catholic New American Bible commentary.[36] A similar event happens in 132 CE, where Hadrian erects a statue of Jupiter on the sacred ground of the Temple, sparking the Bar Kokhba Revolt. A minority view Jesus' prediction of the abomination causing desolation to refer to Hadrian erecting the statue of Jupiter and "false Christs" as a reference to Bar Kokhba, who was considered a messiah for a while after the revolt.
Hosea 11:1
Main article: Flight into Egypt#Prophecy of Hosea
“When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.”
In its original context, this text from Hosea referred to the deliverance of the people of Israel from bondage in Egypt.[37] The Gospel of Matthew applies it to the return from Egypt of Jesus and his family as a messianic prophecy.[38] “An angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, ‘Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there till I tell you; for Herod is about to search for the child to destroy him.’ And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt, and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, ‘Out of Egypt have I called my son’” (Matthew 2: 13-15).
Isaiah 8:23-9:1 (9:1-2)
Main article: Ministry_of_Jesus#Capernaum_as_prophecy
The use of Isaiah 9:1 by the Gospel author of Matthew has led many Christian authors to cite its messianic applications.[39]
1“But there will be no more gloom for those who are now in anguish. In the past the land of Z'vulun and the land of Naftali were regarded lightly; but in the future he will honor the way to the lake, beyond the Yarden, Galil-of-the-Goyim. ”
2The people living in darkness
Have seen a great light;
Upon those living in the land that lies in the shadow of death,
Light has dawned. (CJB)
Matthew refers to this, since Jesus began his public mission in Galilee:
“Now when Jesus heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee; and leaving Nazareth he went and dwelt in Capernaum by the sea, in the territory of Zebulon and Naphtali, that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: ‘The land of Zebulon and the land of Naphtali, toward the sea, across the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles – the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, and for those who sat in the region and shadow of death light has dawned’” (Matthew 4: 15-16).
In Isaiah, this passage describes how Assyrian invaders are increasingly aggressive as they progress toward the sea, while Matthew 4:13-15 has re-interpreted the description as a prophecy stating that Jesus would progress (without any hint of becoming more aggressive) toward Galilee. While Matthew uses the Septuagint rendering of Isaiah, in the Masoretic text it refers to the region of the gentiles rather than Galilee of the nations, and it is likely that the presence of the word Galilee in the Septuagint is a translation error - the Hebrew word for region is galil which can easily be corrupted to galilee.
Isaiah 7:14
Main article: Isaiah 7:14
Isaiah 7:14 - Matthew 1:22-23 states "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" — which means, "God with us". However the Hebrew to English translation of that passage reads "Behold, the young woman [ha-almah in Hebrew]is with child and will bear a son and she will call his name Immanuel."[40] Judaism affirms that [ha-almah] ("young woman") does not refer to a virgin, and that had the Tanakh intended to refer to such, the specific Hebrew word for virgin [bethulah] would have been used. According to secular and Jewish scholarship, Isaiah chapter 7 when read in context, speaks of a prophecy made to the Jewish King Ahaz to allay his fears of two invading kings (those of Damascus and of Samaria) who were preparing to invade Jerusalem, about 600 years before Jesus’ birth. Isaiah 7:16: "For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken." Also, the following chapter of Isaiah appears to describe the fulfillment of the prophecy, repeating that Israel and Syria will soon fall to Assyria, and mentioning again the name Immanuel (Isaiah 8: 1-8). Howard W. Clarke, the Professor Emeritus of Classics at the University of California, Santa Barbara, says Isaiah seems to be explicitly referring to a son of the Judean King Ahaz (ca. 735-715 BC) rather than to his mother as Matthew misinterprets it.[41]
However, [ha-almah] may also refer to a virgin,[citation needed] as "young woman, lass, damsel or maid" might imply virginity, especially in ancient times. Prophetic pronouncements by their nature are often layered, even multi-layered, in their reference/s, as an example, Judaic approach to Isaiah 27:12-13 have embraced the current modern return of Jewish race to Israel and Jerusalem [see below: Messianic Prophecy, Judaism:'He will gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel'], whereas it also refers to the return of the Jews under Artaxerxes rule.[42] So, one may see it quite confidently as well, using Matthew's visionscope.
Jeremiah 31:15
Matthew 2:17-18 gives the killing of innocents by Herod as the fulfillment of a prophecy spoken of in Jeremiah:
Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
A voice is heard in Ramah,
weeping and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more.
In Jeremiah 31:15, the phrase "because her children are no more" refers to the captivity of Rachel's children in Assyria. The subsequent verses describe their return to Israel,[43] which never happened. (see also Assyrian_captivity#No_Historical_Return)
II Samuel 7:14
Hebrews 1:5 quotes this verse as, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son.". However, the verse doesn’t end with the phrase quoted in the New Testament, but continues: "When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men." This cannot possibly fit the Christian Bible’s view of a sinless Jesus.[44] The Old Testament verse is referring to Solomon.[40][45]
Wisdom of Solomon 2:12-20
The Wisdom of Solomon is one of the Deuterocanonical books of the Hebrew Bible. The Deuterocanonical books are considered canonical by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, but are considered non-canonical by Jews and Protestants.
"Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord. He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father. Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected".
See article on the messianic interpretation of the Wisdom of Solomon.
Psalms
Some portions of the psalms are considered prophetic in Judaism, even though they are listed among the Ketuvim (Writings) and not the Nevi'im (Prophets).
The words Messiah and Christ mean "anointed one"- in ancient times. Jewish leaders were anointed with olive oil when they assumed their position (e.g. David, Saul, Isaac, Jacob). And "Messiah" is used as a name for kings in the Hebrew Bible: in 2Samuel 1:14 David finds King Saul's killer and asks, "Why were you not afraid to lift your hand to destroy the LORD's anointed?"
In many Psalms, which were mostly written by King David (i.e. Messiah David), the author writes about his life in third person, referring to himself as "the/God's/your messiah" while clearly talking about his military exploits. Thus it can be argued that many of the portions that are commonly seen as prophecies in Psalms may not be. Psalm 2, spoken of below, can be argued to be about David and not Jesus. Psalms 2:6 says "I have installed [past tense] my King on Zion, my holy hill [Jerusalem, David's capital that he captured in battle in 1 Samuel]." Psalms 2:7 says, "I [David, the author] will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me [David, the person to whom God was speaking], 'You [David] are my Son; today I have become your [adopted] Father.'" If the passage was speaking about a begotten son then that person would have been born the son of that father; he wouldn't have to become it at some later point after birth. (Throughout the Bible it is common to call saints and angels the sons or children of God.)
Psalm 2
Main article: Psalm 2
"Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain? 2. The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and his Anointed, saying, 3. 'Let us burst their bonds asunder, and cast their cords from us.' 4. He who sits in the heavens laughs; the LORD has them in derision. 5. Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying, 6. 'I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill." 7. I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, 'You are my son, today I have begotten you. 8. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. 9. You shall break them with a rod of iron, and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel'" (Psalm 2: 1-9).
The dating of Psalm 2 is argued among scholars, but one suggestion is that it was composed under the Hasmonean dynasty (140-37BC.[46] The authors of Acts and the Epistle to the Hebrews interpreted it as relating to Christ.
Verse 2. “Anointed” – in Hebrew mashiah, “anointed”; in Greek christos, whence English Messiah and Christ.
Verse 7. The LORD is the messiah’s father.(see also god king)
As for kings and rulers setting themselves against the Christ, both Herod and Pontius Pilate set themselves against Jesus, whom God had anointed, according to Acts of the Apostles 4: 25-27.
Acts 13: 33 interprets Jesus’ rising from the dead as confirmation of verse 7 (“You are my son, today I have begotten you”).
Hebrews 1: 5 employs verse 7 in order to argue that Jesus is superior to the angels, i.e., Jesus is superior as a mediator between God and man. “For to what angel did God ever say, Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee?”
Texts vary in the exact wording of the phrase beginning Psalm 2:12, with "kiss his foot", and "kiss the Son" being most common in various languages for centuries. Strong's shows the widely known word "bar," of apparent Chaldean origin but still in common use in Hebrew today as "son," as meaning "heir" or "son." Thus, with this word and the context there is an obvious reverence for royalty which is being portrayed in various manners. The New Testament era translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, gives another variation, literally "accept correction." All of these variations express the same concept- to show reverence and submission to the LORD and his anointed.
Psalm 110
Christian authors have interpreted Psalm 110 as a messianic passage in light of several New Testament passages.[47]
“A psalm of David.
1. The Lord says to my lord: ‘Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool.’
2. The Lord sends forth from Zion your mighty sceptre: ‘Rule in the midst of your foes!
3. With you is sovereignty in the splendor of holiness on the day of your birth: before the morning star, like the dew, I have begotten you.’
4. The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: ‘You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.’
5. The Lord is at your right hand; he will shatter kings on the day of his wrath.
6. He will execute judgment among the nations, filling them with corpses; he will crush heads over the wide earth.
7. He will drink from the brook by the way; therefore he will lift up his head.”
Verse 1. God speaks to David. The first instance of "The LORD (Hebrew: YHWH)" in this verse is a translation of the Hebrew name of God, Yahweh. The second instance of "my lord (Hebrew: ADONI)" is David, from the viewpoint of the Psalmist. The opening phrase of Psalm 110 is literally translated as "Regarding David, a psalm," indicating that the psalm is "of" or "about" King David, not written by him. The same introduction (τω δαυιδ ψαλμος) is used in the LXX version of Psalm 110 (which is Psalm 109 in the Greek text).[48]
In the New Testament, the gospel writers leave out the portion "regarding David, a psalm" and reinterprets the remaining out of context verse as a messainic prophecy: “while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, saying, ‘What do you think of the Christ? Whose son is he?’ They said to him, ‘The son of David.’ He said to them, ‘How is it then that David in the Spirit calls him Lord, saying, The Lord said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand, till I put thy enemies under thy feet? If David thus calls him Lord, how is he his son?’ And no one was able to answer him a word” (Matthew 22: 41-46). The remaining portion of this verse speaks of how David shall be seated at God's right hand, with his enemies thoroughly defeated. Although Hebrew has no capital letters, the Hebrew translation of that passage reads "The Lord said to my lord" indicating that it is not speaking of God.[49]
Paul says of Jesus that “he must reign, until he has put all his enemies under his feet” (1 Corinthians 15: 25).
Verse 3. Before the morning star, like the dew, I have begotten you. The relationship between the Lord God and the messiah: God has begotten the messiah before the morning star, i.e., before the world began. Hence Jesus says, “Father, glorify me with the glory that I had with you before the world was made” (John 17: 5).
Verse 4. The New Testament letter to the Hebrews connects Jesus to the priest Melchizedek. “Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, ‘Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee’; as he says also in another place, ‘Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek.’ For Jesus, in the days of his flesh, offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek” (Hebrews 5: 5-10).
Psalm 16
The interpretation of Psalm 16 as a messanic prophecy is common among Christian evangelical hermeneutics.[50] “I bless the Lord who has given me understanding, because even in the night, my heart warns me. I keep the Lord always within my sight; for he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. For this reason my heart is glad and my soul rejoices; moreover, my body also will rest secure, for thou wilt not leave my soul in the abode of the dead, nor permit thy holy one to see corruption. Thou wilt show me the path of life, the fullness of joys in thy presence, and delights at thy right hand forever” (verses 7-11).
According to the preaching of Peter, this prophecy is about the messiah’s triumph over death, i.e., the resurrection of Jesus.
“God raised Jesus up, having loosed the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. For David says concerning him, ‘I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken… For thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, nor let thy Holy One see corruption… Thou wilt make me full of gladness with thy presence.’ Brethren, I may say to you confidently of the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne, he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and we are all witnesses of it” (Acts 2: 24-32).
Also of note is what Paul said in the synagogue at Antioch. “And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he spoke in this way, ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’ Therefore he also says in another psalm, ‘Thou wilt not let thy Holy One see corruption.’ For David, after he had served the counsel of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and saw corruption; but he whom God raised up saw no corruption” (Acts 13: 34-37).
Psalm 34
Some Christian writers have used the Gospel of John allusion to Psalm 34:20 as an example of a messianic prophecy.[51]
Psalm 34:20 reads: “Many are the afflictions of the just man; but the Lord delivers him from all of them. He guards all his bones: not even one of them shall be broken.” (Psalms 34:20)
In its account of the crucifixion of Jesus, the Gospel quotes[citation needed] this, interpreting it as a prophecy. Linking the psalm's account of the suffering of David (traditionally considered the author) with the suffering of Jesus, it presents some of the details as fulfilment:
“So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with Jesus; but when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water… For these things took place that the scripture might be fulfilled, ‘Not a bone of him shall be broken.’ And again another scripture says, ‘They shall look on him whom they have pierced’” (John 19:32-37)
Psalm 22
See also: Sayings of Jesus on the cross and They have pierced my hands and my feet
Psalm 22 is considered by Christian authors to be a key prophecy of the passion of Jesus. Two of the Gospels accounts Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34) quote Jesus as speaking words from this on the cross:[52]
"From the cross, Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
The other two canonical Gospel accounts quote different accounts of the words of Jesus on the cross. For instance, Luke 23:46 quotes Psalm 31:5 ("Into your hands I commit my spirit") while John has Jesus say "It is finished" (John 19:30). Some scholars see this as evidence that the words of Jesus were not part of a pre-Gospel Passion narrative, but were created later by the Gospel writers.[53] (see also age of the gospels)
In most Hebrew manuscripts such as the Masoretic, Psalm 22:16 (verse 17 in the Hebrew verse numbering) reads כארי ידי ורגלי ("like a lion my hands and my feet").[54][unreliable source?] Many Christians translate this as "they have pierced my hands and my feet", based on the Septuagint and Syriac manuscripts. However, the phrase, if translated as "like a lion my hands and my feet" bears no coherent meaning. There remains some controversy about this translation. The Dead Sea Scrolls lends considerable weight to the translation as "They have pierced my hands and my feet".[55]
Psalm 69
"They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink" Christians believe that this verse refers to Jesus' time on the cross in which he was given a sponge soaked in vinegar to drink, as seen in Matthew 27:34, Mark 15:23, and John 19:29.[56]
). agreed But the More Prophecies there are the more specific an event they point toFoil wrote:Behe, you just made Jeff's point.
Less-specific prophecy fulfillment is less convincing precisely because it is more likely to occur.
Meaning that a group of less-specific prophecies can be more-specific by virtue of numbers?CUDA wrote:the More Prophecies there are the more specific an event they point to
as long as the multiple less-specific prophecies point to or describe the same person or eventFoil wrote:Meaning that a group of less-specific prophecies can be more-specific by virtue of numbers?CUDA wrote:the More Prophecies there are the more specific an event they point to
Then you could have been one of the two to have met the first 3 parts of the prophesy, but do you meet the requirement of the 4th part? if not then you are not "The Moderator" that was predicted.Krom wrote:So lets say for instance for some crazy reason I came in and moderated the thread and proved one level of the 'prophecy' wrong... What then?
Yeah, poor word choice on my part. I should have said "surviving records." You're right that having no surviving records isn't an air-tight case against you, but at the least it seems like it would destroy your project to show extra-biblical reference to a miraculous darkness.flip wrote:Who's to say they didn't? Alot of earlier works got destroyed by people of different opinions and alot of history depends on one historian quoting another where the original text has been lost. Shaky ground IMHO.then you would wonder why no one else recorded the darkness that the New Testament describes.
That sounds like Phlegon, who we've already had some discussion about. I do get the feeling like you're trying to trap me into agreeing to something without having all the information.Can we agree that this would generally be accepted as a legitimate historical document useful for dating historical events?
So perhaps you should just introduce what it is you have in mind?I think that you could apply that reasoning to a lot of religions. One of the interesting things about Jesus is that there doesn't seem to be any (surviving) writing about him written while he was allegedly alive. Everyone that we know about who wrote about him did it decades after his death.flip wrote:These were supposed to be first hand accounts. In my experience, even a liar dislikes another liar and usually lies of this magnitude are found out right away. Any unbelieving person would have jumped at the chance and had those boys tarred and feathered. Unlikely they could have forged such a clever deception and then leave themselves that open to being discredited.
You owe me better than that. You said the reason why you knew that e.g. Psalm 22 was a messianic prophecy was because Jews have been waiting for it to come true for 3000 years, but then when I look it up in a Jewish Bible, it turns out they don't even think it's a prophecy. What is your process for determining which Psalms are prophecies? What is your "litmus test" or do you have one?CUDA wrote:all the Psalms are poems. doesn't mean they aren't also Prophesy's
Don't try to reduce a factual debate into a moral one. Your original assertion seemed to be that the written fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies in the New Testament was evidence for believing in the Bible for those who don't already believe in it. If you want to backpedal and say that the prophecies are really only useful for people who already believe in the New Testament, then that's fair, but that's a weaker claim. Also, if you don't think that reasonable people can come to different opinions about the perfect reliability of the New Testament, then you probably *should* bow out of the discussion, because with that assumption, you're not going to make much progress with all the people who disagree with you.CUDA wrote:there is enough circumstantial evidence to support all the accounts of Christ in the NT. My question for you is your intent in this thread. are you trying to understand? or are you trying to nay say. do you admit that there is enough circumstantial evidence to support the accounts of Christ in the NT? or will you not be satisfied unless like Thomas you see it for yourself. these questions are important for me to choose if I even wish to carry on with this discussion.
Your prophecies are already substantially different than most of the "prophecies" you've cited in the Old Testament, seeing how they're written in the future tense and clearly and consistently refer to the same subject. It's also easy to "fulfill" them when they're about someone who died decades ago whom we otherwise have no surviving record of him fulfilling any of the prophecies but I'm allowed to make it up and claim it as historical fact.CUDA wrote:Then you could have been one of the two to have met the first 3 parts of the prophesy, but do you meet the requirement of the 4th part? if not then you are not "The Moderator" that was predicted.
so now try that with 60+ prophesies
Well, I look at it like this. To claim that at the same time that Jesus died there was an impossible eclipse and a huge earthquake and that it was directly caused by God is a wild claim, but the darkness and earthquakes don't seem to be disputed, just the reasons. I find the lack of any opposition to that claim is just as compelling as you do just a handful of references.Your goal is to provide external evidence of a miracle without having to already believe in the Bible, right?
I'm wondering specifically about his work The Olympiads. Is it a respected document or not? I'm not trying to trap you. I already know that his account, which seems brief and in passing, would not be accepted by you. I'm wondering if The Olympiads is generally regarded by the scientific community as an honest and reliable account of the Olympiads.That sounds like Phlegon, who we've already had some discussion about. I do get the feeling like you're trying to trap me into agreeing to something without having all the information.
what???? no cut and paste I hate Muslims, they are trying to take over the world web sites??????ThunderBunny wrote:@Foil:
What has interested me is this- if you don't believe in the exact word of the bible, why even bother with the bible? In fact, why even bother with the God written about in the bible at all?
Atheism calls to you, dude.
Heh, I usually try to ignore that particular mistake. Coming from a religious background, it's one of the more common spelling errors I've seen, even in edited literature.Jeff250 wrote:Also, "prophecy" = noun, "prophesy" = verb. That's been bothering me for a while.
you're correct I lumped all Prophecies into 1 category, I was in Error, well played, but let's examine the prophecy you chose, Psalm 22 and the Jewish belief that it was not a prophecy just merely a poem.Jeff250 wrote:You owe me better than that. You said the reason why you knew that e.g. Psalm 22 was a messianic prophecy was because Jews have been waiting for it to come true for 3000 years, but then when I look it up in a Jewish Bible, it turns out they don't even think it's a prophecy. What is your process for determining which Psalms are prophecies? What is your "litmus test" or do you have one?CUDA wrote:all the Psalms are poems. doesn't mean they aren't also Prophesy's
so again you are correct there are 2 categories of Prophecies22 The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
there have been several instances where you have said I'm using Circular thinking by using the Bible to reference the Bible. you seem to discount the historicity of it. Based on what? that it's a single "religious" book? I've pointed out to you several times that that would be incorrect. the Bible is actually a Library of books. that are filled with History and eye witness accounts.Jeff wrote:Don't try to reduce a factual debate into a moral one. Your original assertion seemed to be that the written fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies in the New Testament was evidence for believing in the Bible for those who don't already believe in it. If you want to backpedal and say that the prophecies are really only useful for people who already believe in the New Testament, then that's fair, but that's a weaker claim. Also, if you don't think that reasonable people can come to different opinions about the perfect reliability of the New Testament, then you probably *should* bow out of the discussion, because with that assumption, you're not going to make much progress with all the people who disagree with you.CUDA wrote:there is enough circumstantial evidence to support all the accounts of Christ in the NT. My question for you is your intent in this thread. are you trying to understand? or are you trying to nay say. do you admit that there is enough circumstantial evidence to support the accounts of Christ in the NT? or will you not be satisfied unless like Thomas you see it for yourself. these questions are important for me to choose if I even wish to carry on with this discussion.
so if your looking for secular confirmation of what the Bible says is true. you'll never wholly find it. but you will find evidence that supports certain parts of the bible, Enough to allow you to believe that it is correct and true. the accounts to the Jews being kicked out of Rome in Acts, the fact that Herod and Pilate are real people, even proof of the House of David that had been believed to be a Myth for Centuries.The Bible is a collection of 66 books, written by over 40 different authors, with the time span between the earliest and last of about 1500 years.
The first five books appears to have been compiled around 1400 BC, with quotes from them found in other literature, inscriptions, etc from that time forward.
Different books by prophets (15 of them) would be added between about 1000 and 500BC. Also the first of the five "books" that make up the books of Psalms appears to date from around 1000 BC.
The history books that complete the bulk of the Old Testament appear to have reached their current form before 500 and 450 BC, under the guidance of a priest/scholar named Ezra. The Hebrew scriptures were completed by 450 BC, and have remained unchanged since that time.
The New Testament was written by several authors between 48 AD and 95 AD. Quotes from the first three gospels appears in other sources as early as 55 AD, so they had to have been written within 25 years of the life of Jesus. Because "the book" did not exist until almost 300 AD, all early New Testament books were kept on scrolls. It as not practical to use a scroll with a work the length of the New Testament on it, so they books were kept in different collection (the gospels, the letters of Paul, etc.) They first appeared in a single volume just after 325 AD. Fifty copies of that original volume where made, and three manuscripts still exist today that, if not some of those original 50, are copies of them.
So there is no single time or author of the Bible, expect - of course - they One behind the all the different authors and books - God.
I don't hate muslims, Cuda. I hate islam. Get it right.what???? no cut and paste I hate Muslims, they are trying to take over the world web sites??????
I'm disappointed TB
He could be skeptical because the Bible was written by human beings. Oh, you'll get arguments that it's divine, but there still is no hard proof. The Ten Commandments are referenced as written by God, and yet we only have the word of a human, Moses, and some no-longer-existing stone tablets, to tell us that those were in fact written by God. If one has a healthy dose of skepticism, then one can still believe in an omnipotent being without basing things on words from the Bible. Modern humans have far more knowledge, and far less fear of the unknown, than those from 2 thousand years agoThunderBunny wrote:@Foil:
What has interested me is this- if you don't believe in the exact word of the bible, why even bother with the bible? In fact, why even bother with the God written about in the bible at all?
Atheism calls to you, dude.
Oh, I don't like Islam either, TB, but Christianity is no great shakes either, especially for women. You should be one sometime.ThunderBunny wrote:I don't hate muslims, Cuda. I hate islam. Get it right.
There are people that are brought up under islam that don't know any better- but can always be saved from it as long as they don't become zealots.
Once they have intimidated, attacked, maimed, raped or murdered someone for the cause of islam- that is when I hold them accountable along with the religion of hate.
tc, the crux of his question is really, "what value is there in the Bible if you don't take it 100% literally?" It's actually a bit odd to see that question from an atheist, because it's typically asked by young-earthers (they interpret through a hyper-literal lens).tunnelcat wrote:He could be skeptical because the Bible was written by human beings. ...ThunderBunny wrote:@Foil ...if you don't believe in the exact word of the bible, why even bother with the bible? In fact, why even bother with the God written about in the bible at all?
I was half-joking with ya there Foil.tc, the crux of his question is really, "what value is there in the Bible if you don't take it 100% literally?" It's actually a bit odd coming from an atheist, because that question typically comes from a young-earther (they see Biblical truth through a hyper-literal lens).
I don't understand. You find the strong evidence that there was a solar eclipse as compelling evidence that there was miraculous darkness?flip wrote:Well, I look at it like this. To claim that at the same time that Jesus died there was an impossible eclipse and a huge earthquake and that it was directly caused by God is a wild claim, but the darkness and earthquakes don't seem to be disputed, just the reasons. I find the lack of any opposition to that claim is just as compelling as you do just a handful of references.
As far as I know it's generally considered reliable, but the only things I know about it are the small amounts of research I've had to undertake in this thread.flip wrote:I'm wondering specifically about his work The Olympiads. Is it a respected document or not? I'm not trying to trap you. I already know that his account, which seems brief and in passing, would not be accepted by you. I'm wondering if The Olympiads is generally regarded by the scientific community as an honest and reliable account of the Olympiads.
So the only reason why Psalm 22 is a prophecy and are some other psalms aren't is that Psalm 22 happened to come true according to the New Testament? Maybe the Jews just think that you should have a better methodology for deciding which psalms are prophecies than which ones come true. And maybe even if something in the future did happen that resembled a psalm, then maybe that just makes it "foreshadowing" or "parallelism," not a prophecy.CUDA wrote:Is there a probability that as a "Christian" prophecy that this probably describes the events of the crucifixion in the NT?
I don't doubt that your Jewish Study text does not consider it a Prophecy. they do not believe that Christ was the Messiah, and if Christ was Not the Messiah why would a "poem" about a Crucifixion, which by the way was not a form of known punishment when it was written, be a prophecy about the Messiah?
Or, again, from my perspective, the New Testament authors wrote down that he did.CUDA wrote:does he meet those prophecies? Yes he does.
If you want the Old Testament prophecies to stand on their own as a reason to believe in the Bible, then you can't presuppose that I already believe in the perfect historicity of the New Testament in your argument. If you want to argue for the perfect historicity of the Bible, then that is a separate argument.CUDA wrote:there have been several instances where you have said I'm using Circular thinking by using the Bible to reference the Bible. you seem to discount the historicity of it. Based on what? that it's a single "religious" book? I've pointed out to you several times that that would be incorrect. the Bible is actually a Library of books. that are filled with History and eye witness accounts.
What is your conception of "faith"? Believing in something without sufficient evidence? Believing in something because you want it to be true?CUDA wrote:Much like people take the Origins of the world and the Big Bang as fact with out empirical Proof, but there is enough evidence to have faith for some that it is true. the Bible is much the same way.
