S&P downgrades US rating from AAA

[Herculosis]

“Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle.”

[Tunnelcat]

No one here is saying that hard work can't get you out of poor circumstances into better ones, because it often can. But even in the best scenario, there's a degree of luck and/or favorable conditions that come into play. Someone else might not have had the lucky break or two that you received, or their area might not have had the opportunity that you took advantage of. You can be the most hard-working and dedicated person out there, but if everything else is completely stacked against you, it's only going to take you so far, maybe not even out of poverty.

I think that's the best reason I've heard in a long time. Sure, someone can get a lucky break and possibly do something great with it. But I think in our present economy, with the top 4% holding as much wealth as the bottom 50% in this country, the deck is definitely stacked against the average working or middle class person who's unlucky enough to not be born into wealth, ever attaining the American dream with that one lucky break. I don't think most Americans can comprehend a class-based social system. Most of our societal struggles have about race in this country and not class. But ask any Brit, and you'll get the idea real quick.

[Sergeant Thorne]

No one here is saying that hard work can't get you out of poor circumstances into better ones, because it often can. But even in the best scenario, there's a degree of luck and/or favorable conditions that come into play. Someone else might not have had the lucky break or two that you received, or their area might not have had the opportunity that you took advantage of. You can be the most hard-working and dedicated person out there, but if everything else is completely stacked against you, it's only going to take you so far, maybe not even out of poverty.

See, I just don't see how you can claim that this is a picture of reality. I would say it is a jaded picture of reality conceived by an individual or individuals who haven't succeeded, not couldn't. The biggest thing stacked against you in life is an inaccurate perception or expectation of your situation, and with that argument you have clearly already lost. Separating what I'm saying from any of this "positive confession" or "positive attitude" nonsense going around in religious and business circles these days, I'm not saying you should set your expectations higher than what is attainable, I'm insisting that what is attainable is a lot higher than most people accept. And the hard fact is they accept their jaded/compromised picture of reality simply because it is too difficult and painful to admit that they have failed *here*, *here*, and *here*, and that their present unhappy situation could have been different but for their own actions, in spite of negative circumstances. I speak from experience, and from dealing with people who I know are doing just that. Until you accept the truth that you are ultimately responsible for your situation (with a reasonable respect for your circumstances), you will be powerless to change it. Its not a good sign in our culture that it's (obviously) more and more popular and popularized that people are not really responsible for their situation. It's being pushed for power, profit, justification, or just plain ignorance, and it is a very defeating perspective.

Data be damned, if you believe you can't rise out of poverty and I believe I can, which one of us is going to perceive the opportunity that you claim knocks selectively?

[Zuruck]

Hahahaha.....thanks for the laugh Thorne. I really needed it today.

[Sergeant Thorne]

You can be the most hard-working and dedicated person out there, but if everything else is completely stacked against you, it's only going to take you so far, maybe not even out of poverty.

Absolute fantasy--you have not derived this example from experience or observation. It's also a ridiculous notion, because you never truly stop advancing until you stop trying.

[Spidey]

There are two schools of thought when it comes to poverty.

One school that needs their votes…errr that tells them what they want to hear.

And, one school that believes that it is more important to tell people what they need to hear, not what they want to hear.

Now go ahead and have a good laugh, because with cheerleaders like TG and tc, who needs Slick’s little group of networked gentry, to stand in anybodys way.

[CUDA]

In High school I had a teacher that taught us "Winners never quit, and Quitters never win" and that "Anyone can be mediocre but it takes effort to achieve something" those were the best bits of instruction that I ever received in school

[Zuruck]

[mod edit: Z, there is a difference between lively debate and personal attack. Learn it.]

[Top Gun]

You can be the most hard-working and dedicated person out there, but if everything else is completely stacked against you, it's only going to take you so far, maybe not even out of poverty.

Absolute fantasy--you have not derived this example from experience or observation. It's also a ridiculous notion, because you never truly stop advancing until you stop trying.

Unless your "experience" happens to include legitimate research into what causes these conditions in the first place and how we might go about solving them, I don't see how it applies on any sort of broader scale. Personal anecdotes are largely meaningless in the long run.

In High school I had a teacher that taught us "Winners never quit, and Quitters never win" and that "Anyone can be mediocre but it takes effort to achieve something" those were the best bits of instruction that I ever received in school

Yes, because tired old platitudes plastered on motivational posters are clearly more powerful than socioeconomic conditions.

[CUDA]

[removed by moderator]

personal attacks AGAIN

[CUDA]

In High school I had a teacher that taught us "Winners never quit, and Quitters never win" and that "Anyone can be mediocre but it takes effort to achieve something" those were the best bits of instruction that I ever received in school

Yes, because tired old platitudes plastered on motivational posters are clearly more powerful than socioeconomic conditions.

well OBVIOUSLY the context of his point went RIGHT over your head.

[Tunnelcat]

You can be the most hard-working and dedicated person out there, but if everything else is completely stacked against you, it's only going to take you so far, maybe not even out of poverty.

Absolute fantasy--you have not derived this example from experience or observation. It's also a ridiculous notion, because you never truly stop advancing until you stop trying.

Back in the early 1950's, even the 1970's, I would have agreed with you. Nowadays, with this country fighting for dwindling shares of those scarcer and scarcer world resources and more and more job competition along with it's corresponding wage deflation from third world countries and a world population that's around 7 billion, forget about it. We are in our sunset years as a country. No amount of hard work is going to get around the problem, unless we can use technology to save our collective butts, which I wouldn't gamble the farm on right now.

[Krom]

One of the best shots America has right now at a serious economic revival that would last is if we monopolized clean fusion energy, but that front isn't looking to good for us right now since US based research has been cut and the EU is taking the lead.

[Sergeant Thorne]

You can be the most hard-working and dedicated person out there, but if everything else is completely stacked against you, it's only going to take you so far, maybe not even out of poverty.

Absolute fantasy--you have not derived this example from experience or observation. It's also a ridiculous notion, because you never truly stop advancing until you stop trying.

Back in the early 1950's, even the 1970's, I would have agreed with you. Nowadays, with this country fighting for dwindling shares of those scarcer and scarcer world resources and more and more job competition along with it's corresponding wage deflation from third world countries and a world population that's around 7 billion, forget about it. We are in our sunset years as a country. No amount of hard work is going to get around the problem, unless we can use technology to save our collective butts, which I wouldn't gamble the farm on right now.

Do you pretty much watch TV non-stop? Maybe you should pull you head out of Obama's global economy and just look at the opportunities around you--opportunities that exist everywhere, locally. So you don't think I've got a shot at maintaining an unprecedented lead in the iron-ore business if I work really hard? Probably can't elbow my way into the ultra-popular, international search-engine business either? Why do I even bother? What about just a small business that meets the needs of the people around it then?

The sun doesn't have to set on us, and if and when it does it certainly won't be something that we can legitimately blame on the economy. Ideas will sink this country.

[Tunnelcat]

Sergeant, the question if whether one can still get ahead in this country is a binary one. One can always find the opposing corner case for or against the question. One good example in favor of your point, that hard work will produce results even in adversity, happened during the Depression. The founders of Hewlett Packard started their business during the Depression in 1939, so through hard work, perseverance, good ideas and a little luck, overcame that adversity and created a huge, profitable company and became billionaires.

My point is NOT of whether one can get ahead by hard work, ANYONE has that chance to win a lottery. But what's changed in our present day economy is that the ODDS of winning have gone WAY worse because of present day global economic realities. With those bad odds, fewer and fewer people will have a chance to win that lottery, despite their hard work, or luck. I'm not saying that NO ONE can attain the American Dream anymore, I'm saying that not as many as in the past will be able to attain it, no matter how they play the game, how hard they work or what luck they have.

[Sergeant Thorne]

I would argue that the American dream is not withheld because of economic difficulty or the increase in population, but ultimately because people are defeated through the choices they make and what they choose to believe. This isn't a lottery, that's just the way you choose to understand a complex human equation.

Binary would mean that there are only two options.

[callmeslick]

I replied to callmeslick.

and made no more sense than initially......yeesh, get out and meet some real people, please, before you make such moronic generalizations.

[callmeslick]

I would argue that the American dream is not withheld because of economic difficulty or the increase in population, but ultimately because people are defeated through the choices they make and what they choose to believe. This isn't a lottery, that's just the way you choose to understand a complex human equation.

Binary would mean that there are only two options.

hate to break it to ya, Sarge, but the 'American Dream' is largely a crock of crap, dreamed up by the relative handful of folks who've held all the cards since the mid 1800's. Dream on.

[Spidey]

I live the “American Dream” everyday, so I don’t know what the hell you are talking about.

Get all your beliefs from George Carlin?

[flip]

I think what he means Spidey is back then they gained the ability and means and at this point are really closing the reigns. Hell, I want to be optimistic myself and I'm watching the news everyday for a good damn reason to be so. Everything is precarious as hell right now and I don't think anyone knows exactly where to go now that we are here. Before this it was easy, let's just rally together and hate that guy over there and kick his ass. That's what has kept every nation united up to this point. Us versus Them. Now that we have reached this Utopia of peace and good relations and trade, who is the Us and Them now? Hell we do live within a class system of Rich, Middle Class and those impoverished. Is it not reasonable to think that as the privileged become more and more powerful, that they would in turn start to abuse those considered beneath them? Hell, it's been like that from the beginning, but one thing I am optimistic about. EVERYTIME it gets to the point the abuse gets unbearable, it turns back to freedom and liberties.

[CUDA]

The American Dream is a national ethos of the United States in which freedom includes a promise of the possibility of prosperity and success. In the definition of the American Dream by James Truslow Adams in 1931, "life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement" regardless of social class or circumstances of birth. The idea of the American Dream is rooted in the United States Declaration of Independence which proclaims that "all men are created equal" and that they are "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights" including "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

I notice it states the Possibility of prosperity and success. not the Promise of said

I'm sure People like Marc Cuban and Mark Zuckerberg believe in the American Dream, just to name a couple

[Tunnelcat]

I would argue that the American dream is not withheld because of economic difficulty or the increase in population, but ultimately because people are defeated through the choices they make and what they choose to believe. This isn't a lottery, that's just the way you choose to understand a complex human equation.

Binary would mean that there are only two options.

I'm not saying that any one person can't succeed with hard work. I'm saying that there are fewer numbers of people that can get ahead with hard work than there were in the past. If you don't think population, resources and class play a role in whether someone can succeed, well, what can I say. Have fun in the new class-based utopia that we're creating????? And when is it someone's "choice", to fall ill for example, and subsequently fail to do that hard work and then fall into poverty because of the way the system treats those who can't work? Let them die to solve the problem?

And yes, there are only 2 options in attaining the American Dream, failure or success, even if it's only a possibility. By the way, Zuckerberg is a megalomaniac and a thief, just like Bill Gates. Not a good gauge of hard work when someone steals from the hard work of others to get ahead in life.

[flip]

First off, Mark Zuckerburg is a Harvard dropout, notice where he came from, and the story is he was kinda unscrupulous. Also I'm not sure why everyone doesn't realize that a huge shift in power and policy happened at the "bailout". The money that was there was ruined, then more was printed in it's place further devaluing and then handed right over to the people who ruined the other. ★■◆● changed right then and the balance of power shifted too.
One thing I will say. They made a way for people to become successful. Finish school, go to college and get a degree. It does seem to me that self-employment is definitely being discouraged and swallowed up by these monopolies that already control everything else. So, go to college and more than likely you can become a well-payed slave. It's not all bad

Edit: Oh, and that's everybody's fault that voted for Obama and didn't see it coming. It's not like he wasn't forthright with the way he would do things and was openly promoting it. When half the people started accusing him of socialism the other half said maybe socialism isn't so bad. No one could have forseen the "bailout", well some did , but Obama's response to such an event was totally predictable.

[Sergeant Thorne]

Break it to someone who doesn't know better, slick. The American dream is not lived by the folks with the cards, its lived by people that start their own business, or farm (ok that part of the dream is in trouble), or do anything with their own two hands to benefit themselves and make a living on their own property.

As far as I can see, flip, college is all about being the highest-paid slave you can be. It's one of the things I have against them.

[Tunnelcat]

Hmmm, Zuckerburg AND Gates both dropped out of Harvard. Do you sense a pattern here?

I guess a thieves have to do hard work to succeed as well, so I guess no matter what type of hard work one does, even if it's unethical, is good enough to count towards success in this country.

[flip]

Not saying i agree with it. Just that's the way it is. I myself believe capitalism's greatest ability to succeed is based on self-employment, but no way I'm ever gonna be able to compete with Walmart, or any other huge entity that decides to subdue another business venture as their own. This is not surprising by the way, or shouldn't be.

Edit: Just to be clear, not if the current trend continues. I hope for the best.

[Sergeant Thorne]

If the government controlled imports better you probably could compete with Walmart. Just about any large business entity is doing so many little things wrong that competition is far from hopeless, especially with the use of coops. For the last couple of years I've been working for a small lumber-yard/hardware store that buys most of its hardware through a coop known as Do It Best, as an example. The big box stores win the perception game, but they're in it for the money, and once you look past all of their loss-leaders and variable-pricing you find that, overall, they really stick it too you, despite all of their buying power (plus they'll sell the cheapest product possible for only a middle to high price). They even make agreements with trusted name brands to make modified product lines of lower quality so that they can squeeze more profit out of it. Then there is the deplorable customer service, in general, and lack of product knowledge (not always, but generally). Of course one thing they do really have on the small businesses is on-hand product selection.

[flip]

I try not to start any argument with the word "if". but I see your point.

[Tunnelcat]

If the government controlled imports better...........

How? Using tariffs?

By the way, even though we have a relatively new Home Depot in town and I've bought quite a bit of stuff there, I still prefer to go and do business with my local merchants whenever possible. Most times I can find a more obscure and better selection of products than the big box stores. But there are those times that Home Depot is the only place to find something when the locals just don't have it.

[Sergeant Thorne]

If the government controlled imports better...........

How? Using tariffs?

Yes, tariffs.

By the way, even though we have a relatively new Home Depot in town and I've bought quite a bit of stuff there, I still prefer to go and do business with my local merchants whenever possible. Most times I can find a more obscure and better selection of products than the big box stores. But there are those times that Home Depot is the only place to find something when the locals just don't have it.

Good for you. Myself I have a little bit of a different perspective on the whole thing than some of the wishful thinkers in small business. The whole "shop local" drive is a nice thing, but local businesses don't deserve any special considerations if they aren't doing their part to earn business by being competitive and providing a high level of service. A company that sits on their ass and wants me to come to them and pay a higher price just because they're local needs to think again. Nobody should ask for anyone's business if they aren't willing to work hard to make it worth their while, then they can talk about helping your local economy. In that way competition from the big boys is a good thing, and even the difficulty in the economy has its bright side (only the strong/innovative survive).

[flip]

only the strong/innovative survive

You know, that only happens in bad soil too .

[Ferno]

only the strong/innovative/shrewd survive

[callmeslick]

Break it to someone who doesn't know better, slick. The American dream is not lived by the folks with the cards, its lived by people that start their own business, or farm (ok that part of the dream is in trouble), or do anything with their own two hands to benefit themselves and make a living on their own property.

As far as I can see, flip, college is all about being the highest-paid slave you can be. It's one of the things I have against them.

nice, the Sarge weighs in against education. Go Ignorance, that's what makes this nation what it is!

[callmeslick]

Hmmm, Zuckerburg AND Gates both dropped out of Harvard. Do you sense a pattern here?

they ought to.....it's called networking with the elite, who have benefitted from the experience, by the way, as well. A lot of old money Harvard boys made money along the way with the two folks given by way of example.

[callmeslick]

Clarification of a few points for the Sarge:

I said what I did about the American Dream, as most people view it as the ideal that you can raise yourself out of poverty by sheer willpower and diligence. Now, reading your words, you seem content with a vastly lower level of acheivement, not surprising as you seem to have a disdain for education thrown in with a bunch of other ideas. While, for most students, higher education does lead to working for a larger entity, it also provides the path towards some other folks becoming independant professionals. Most important, it gives a handful the tools necessary to become innovators and to bring to the society the progress and technology necessary for all of society to progress.

My problem comes with a couple of notions I find bandied about endlessly. First, the idea that the US is the land with endless opportunities to rise from poverty. That one, sadly, just is not true, nor has it been for a while. We have sunk far from the top in socioeconomic mobility at the present time. Interestingly, most studies link such mobility to educational opportunity, which you disdain. Hmmm.

Problem number two is your bizzare idea that somehow, a cadre of 'liberals' is calling the shots for the nation. Nothing could be further from the truth. Actually, the group of folks ultimately calling the shots is the same group that has been calling the shots since the Civil War. TC wondered, in one post, about whether the monied aristocracy is just getting tired of even caring about the rest of the populace, and I think there may well be something to that notion. Most folks, from what I've seen, go through life oblivious to the massive advantage the aristocracy have in life, and this is why I argue for more progressive wealth distribution. I am not suggesting that we ever can or wish to redistribute most of the wealth, but that some such transfer would maintain a better society for all. I look at how I was raised, and realize that the cards were stacked against anyone not raised similarly. I was privvy to the best schools, no worries about food, healthcare or housing, nor any financial barriers to any choice of educational or professional options. That takes a huge amount of risk out of life. Also, and this is the part many never see or grasp, by the time I was 17 years old, I had met(not just shook hands with, but met over dinner, lunch, etc) at least 7 sitting US Senators, 20 Congressmen, a few Governors and countless high-level business leaders. To this day, I can send emails or even call on the phone, almost every person in elected office who affects my interests. In Virginia, the State Rep is the son of a guy who made a lot of money renting farmland from my family, the School Superintendent is an old family friend, the Circuit Court judge used to be the family lawyer, and one of the Senators has known me since we were both in short pants. Here in PA, the Congressman(a Republican), answers my phone calls personally, as do a few others. This is a leg up on life that the average citizen has utterly NO PRAYER of competing with, and thus, it is little wonder that when laws get written, legal decisions get rendered or planning is done, my interests are considered, if I wish them to be. I suspect this isn't the system the Founders envisioned, but am reluctant to try and read the mind of Jefferson, Franklin, Adams et al. It is, however, the reality of the US since at least 1870 forward, and probably can be traced back to Colonial times for it's inception. Therefore, I hope some of you all understand better my jaundiced eye toward blaming the economic realities on some of the silly nonsense one can read here, or elsewhere. The Tea Party has no clue, nor does the Huffington Post.

[Spidey]

Boy, never miss an opportunity to blow your own horn, do ya.

[woodchip]

Break it to someone who doesn't know better, slick. The American dream is not lived by the folks with the cards, its lived by people that start their own business, or farm (ok that part of the dream is in trouble), or do anything with their own two hands to benefit themselves and make a living on their own property.

As far as I can see, flip, college is all about being the highest-paid slave you can be. It's one of the things I have against them.

nice, the Sarge weighs in against education. Go Ignorance, that's what makes this nation what it is!

What made this nation are the electricians, pipe fitters, carpenters, painters and all the other skilled trades. You can have all the money in the world Slick but if no one is there to build your house, build the road you drive on or farm the land to feed you,,,,what would you have? Wealth might of funded Christopher Columbus's trip to America, but it was average people with a dream that built it. Most all of whom had no formal education.

[Sergeant Thorne]

nice, the Sarge weighs in against education. Go Ignorance, that's what makes this nation what it is!

And it's not ignorant to claim that I'm weighing in against education when that's not what I've said? I'm not against education by any stretch of the imagination. I'm of two minds on the subject: on the one hand it seems to me that education institutions are shooting too low and doing the young people a disservice by educating to the level of getting them into a "good job" (not to forget that at this point they're in debt now for however many years). On the other hand I think there is a place for vocation-based training. It just seems to me that schools should be aiming a lot higher. Try to have a more open mind, oh highly educated one--I think education could be better than what I see being produced around me. One of my ultimate goals/dreams is to start an education institution.

[flip]

If that's true Slick, tell them to get some fake names, get on the DBB, and let's talk

[callmeslick]

Boy, never miss an opportunity to blow your own horn, do ya.

I'm trying to point out reality. The above is reality......and actually, I could care less what the view of me, personally, is. I just find it astounding to watch folks year after year, cycle after cycle, point fingers without a clue at imaginary demons.