Education, Threat to National Security

[Top Gun]

but there is a huge issue in that the majority of people out there aren't qualified to personally educate their children,

And this is different from the public school system how?????

Any decent public school system has teachers that are more than qualified as educators. The ★■◆● of it is how many districts out there don't even meet the standard of "decent."

And I said that the numbers are "encouraging" because, even though they are certainly very positive, there's something of a built-in bias inherent in them. The parents who pursue home-schooling today are, by and large, people who are qualified to do it and/or very enthusiastic about it, not to mention those who have the ability to do so. It's not something that would ever work on a massive scale, for several logistical reasons. Even putting aside the fact that the majority of parents of school-age children are probably not qualified to handle material beyond the elementary level, there's the simple fact that there aren't all that many stay-at-home parents anymore. Obviously, a family where both parents have to work full-time jobs in order to make ends meet, or a single-parent family, simply wouldn't have that luxury.

Honestly, I'm not defending public education as some sort of personal statement, as I didn't even attend public schools beyond kindergarten myself. However, I recognize them as an invaluable resource, and one that desperately needs fixing in order to ensure our country's prosperity in the future. We need our kids to be proficient in math and science and reading, and we need that universal decree of taxpayer-funded education in order to do that on a large scale.

(Also, Thorne, I suspect your quip about "impressionable minds" proves my point, given many other statements you've made on here.)

[Gooberman]

We have two problems:

1. This country attaches such a stingma to anyone who doesn't graduate high school -- and more so college as well these days. This country needs people to do jobs that don’t require a college education.
2. This country doesn't understand why people should fail. If there is no failure, there is no standard.

Other countries focus on making their top students reach their highest potential -- we focus our energies on our bottom students "succeeding" ("no child left behind").

While there is some moral respectability of that mind set, China does not do this. Korea does not do this. Japan does not do this. India does not do this.

Their children, will be the boss of our children.

[Sergeant Thorne]

And I said that the numbers are "encouraging" because, even though they are certainly very positive, there's something of a built-in bias inherent in them. The parents who pursue home-schooling today are, by and large, people who are qualified to do it and/or very enthusiastic about it, not to mention those who have the ability to do so. It's not something that would ever work on a massive scale, for several logistical reasons. Even putting aside the fact that the majority of parents of school-age children are probably not qualified to handle material beyond the elementary level, there's the simple fact that there aren't all that many stay-at-home parents anymore. Obviously, a family where both parents have to work full-time jobs in order to make ends meet, or a single-parent family, simply wouldn't have that luxury.

Honestly, I'm not defending public education as some sort of personal statement, as I didn't even attend public schools beyond kindergarten myself. However, I recognize them as an invaluable resource, and one that desperately needs fixing in order to ensure our country's prosperity in the future. We need our kids to be proficient in math and science and reading, and we need that universal decree of taxpayer-funded education in order to do that on a large scale.

Where did this straw-man argument that home-schooling is the ideal come from? It works, it has worked (very well), and there are problems with public schooling that aren't going away anytime soon. I would love to be able to send my future children to be educated in a school specialized for the task, but that's just not happening as I see it. Too many problems, too many negative influences.

(Also, Thorne, I suspect your quip about "impressionable minds" proves my point, given many other statements you've made on here.)

You're being cryptic, and I was not making a quip.

[Top Gun]

Where did this straw-man argument that home-schooling is the ideal come from? It works, it has worked (very well), and there are problems with public schooling that aren't going away anytime soon. I would love to be able to send my future children to be educated in a school specialized for the task, but that's just not happening as I see it. Too many problems, too many negative influences.

I don't see it as much of a straw man given where the conversation was going. We had a few people saying, "Man home-schooling is great, and the kids in it perform really well, etc.", which prompted my response of, "Yeah, that's great for the people it works for, but not so much for the people it doesn't." At the end of the day, we're still left with a public education system that needs fixing.

(Also, Thorne, I suspect your quip about "impressionable minds" proves my point, given many other statements you've made on here.)

You're being cryptic, and I was not making a quip.

I didn't think my implication was all that cryptic, but maybe I was being too discreet. From what I know about your general world-view, I have the strong suspicion that you fall into the category of parents home-schooling their children for at least partially-religious reasons, and I'd wager that your reference to "impressionable minds" ties into your stance on certain fields that these reasons would entail. Maybe I'm completely barking up the wrong tree here, but I kind of doubt it.

[woodchip]

In the end it may well be that a fusion of brick and mortar schools with online classes will be the future of education. Listening to CNN, it seems Harvard and MIT are going to be offering online classes. Maybe it will come to pass, a junior high teacher with a gifted student, will be able to assign that student a more difficult (read challenging) on line class while the teacher gets to concentrate more on the class dummies. Time will tell though.

[CUDA]

I have the strong suspicion that you fall into the category of parents home-schooling their children for at least partially-religious reasons,

and why is this a problem??? does he not have the Constitutional right to do that?

[Sergeant Thorne]

You can put your concerns to rest, Top Gun. I just don't approve of schools teaching children theories about the origin of life that are contrary to the Bible. Between that, sending children confusing messages about sexuality, and jumping on the global-warming bandwagon they pretty much deviate from education into popular culture indoctrination.

[Tunnelcat]

I have the strong suspicion that you fall into the category of parents home-schooling their children for at least partially-religious reasons,

and why is this a problem??? does he not have the Constitutional right to do that?

Maybe that's a good thing. All those Christian home-schooled children can stay in their own little religious homes and be happy to not have to deal with all those evil sinners out there. And when they DO have to deal with them, they can just rationalize them as evil lowlifes sucking off the blood of society that need to be ignored, indoctrinated, imprisoned or killed.

But even though all those studies point to better grades and no socialization issues, I'm willing to be that all those home schooled kids will have a decidedly narrow view of the lives and situations of others not within their closed local world view and a narrow view of how the world really works, both socially and scientifically. Just like both of you, CUDA and ST with your unflinching belief in the voracity of the Bible and nothing else.

[Top Gun]

I have the strong suspicion that you fall into the category of parents home-schooling their children for at least partially-religious reasons,

and why is this a problem??? does he not have the Constitutional right to do that?

One wonders. Would indoctrinating your children with a patently-false world view still fall under religious protection?

You can put your concerns to rest, Top Gun. I just don't approve of schools teaching children theories about the origin of life that are contrary to the Bible. Between that, sending children confusing messages about sexuality, and jumping on the global-warming bandwagon they pretty much deviate from education into popular culture indoctrination.

Welp, this pretty much confirms my fears. Not that it'll do any good, but Thorne, you're doing your children a massive disservice here. The fun thing about facts is that they remain true whether or not one believes in them, so all you're accomplishing is setting your kids up for failure by not instructing them in basic reasoning. To be blunt, if your faith structure can't cope with the realities of the world, that really says more about your faith structure than the world.

[CUDA]

I have the strong suspicion that you fall into the category of parents home-schooling their children for at least partially-religious reasons,

and why is this a problem??? does he not have the Constitutional right to do that?

One wonders. Would indoctrinating your children with a patently-false world view still fall under religious protection?

patently false??? I'm sure you have concrete proof that it's patently false

[CUDA]

I have the strong suspicion that you fall into the category of parents home-schooling their children for at least partially-religious reasons,

and why is this a problem??? does he not have the Constitutional right to do that?

Maybe that's a good thing. All those Christian home-schooled children can stay in their own little religious homes and be happy to not have to deal with all those evil sinners out there. And when they DO have to deal with them, they can just rationalize them as evil lowlifes sucking off the blood of society that need to be ignored, indoctrinated, imprisoned or killed.

the beauty of it is, it teaches us how to deal with you evil sinners

But even though all those studies point to better grades and no socialization issues, I'm willing to be that all those home schooled kids will have a decidedly narrow view of the lives and situations of others not within their closed local world view and a narrow view of how the world really works, both socially and scientifically. Just like both of you, CUDA and ST with your unflinching belief in the voracity of the Bible and nothing else.

how narrow minded of you TC your whole life is limited to what is before your eyes. how sad. I find that those with a TRUE faith in JC are more open minded then the most out spoken liberals, those that only claim to be open minded, they are open minded enough to believe in the possibilities of things beyond the visual, they don't limit themselves to a box.

[Top Gun]

patently false??? please explain

To quote Thorne, "...theories about the origin of life that are contrary to the Bible." The world was not created 6000 years ago. Humans didn't pal around with dinosaurs. All life did not spring into being over six literal 24-hour days. These are patent falsehoods, irrevocably proven wrong. I don't care what you choose to believe, but I consider misleading children into believing statements like these to be a flat-out evil act.

Honestly, the fact that people like Thorne can't even figure out that Genesis is not, and was never intended to be, a literal historical document of the origins of the Earth and life, is probably the most absurd thing of all. Only it's not absurd, because a huge percentage of the people in this country believe it, which probably has a lot to do with why China and Japan kick our asses at education.

[Spidey]

Yea, blame it on the relatively few people who take the Bible literally…not the society in general, or the failing school system…didn’t read much of this thread did you?

[Top Gun]

Considering I made one of the first ten posts and have been engaged in the conversation ever since, you tell me if I read the whole thread.

And "few"? Ha.

[Spidey]

Specify “huge percentage”.

[CUDA]

patently false??? please explain

To quote Thorne, "...theories about the origin of life that are contrary to the Bible." The world was not created 6000 years ago. Humans didn't pal around with dinosaurs. All life did not spring into being over six literal 24-hour days. These are patent falsehoods, irrevocably proven wrong. I don't care what you choose to believe, but I consider misleading children into believing statements like these to be a flat-out evil act.

Honestly, the fact that people like Thorne can't even figure out that Genesis is not, and was never intended to be, a literal historical document of the origins of the Earth and life, is probably the most absurd thing of all. Only it's not absurd, because a huge percentage of the people in this country believe it, which probably has a lot to do with why China and Japan kick our asses at education.

THAT'S PROOF?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

where I come from that's called an opinion. lets TRY to keep this on topic, I'm not interested in another Creation V Origin of species debate. if that's where you intend to go then I'm out.

[Tunnelcat]

the beauty of it is, it teaches us how to deal with you evil sinners

Yeah, reminds me of how all those Jesus-loving religious people brought us the Inquisition to deal with all those sinners.

how narrow minded of you TC your whole life is limited to what is before your eyes. how sad. I find that those with a TRUE faith in JC are more open minded then the most out spoken liberals, those that only claim to be open minded, they are open minded enough to believe in the possibilities of things beyond the visual, they don't limit themselves to a box.

No, I'm more open minded. I don't discount the Bible, but neither do I hold it as hard fact. It's only a parable, some good, some bad, some misinformed. I take what I see in the world as factual, because that's something I can observe with my senses, but I don't outright discount a little faith in something intangible, like God. Those who are open-minded can blend the two concepts of observable and intangible things and not just discount them outright because they don't fit their world view of how things are supposed to be.

[CUDA]

the beauty of it is, it teaches us how to deal with you evil sinners

Yeah, reminds me of how all those Jesus-loving religious people brought us the Inquisition to deal with all those sinners.

And yet it's still doesnt match up to what all those religion hating atheists have done just since the turn of the century

[flip]

I think it would be fun to watch a sped up time-lapse of the Universe coming together, just based on the things we know from physics today.

[Tunnelcat]

And yet it's still doesnt match up to what all those religion hating atheists have done just since the turn of the century

Now how is that? I don't recall atheists burning people at the stake or hanging them because they thought they were "witches" or torturing people for some implied heresy against the Church. And atheists haven't put out fatwas on people because they insulted their religion or prophet (Islam).

[CUDA]

And yet it's still doesnt match up to what all those religion hating atheists have done just since the turn of the century

Now how is that? I don't recall atheists burning people at the stake or hanging them because they thought they were "witches" or torturing people for some implied heresy against the Church. And atheists haven't put out fatwas on people because they insulted their religion or prophet (Islam).

don't read history much then do you.

ever hear of a guy named Nero??

and these books are some light reading about this century for starters, check them out then get back to me

The Road To Terror by J Arch Getty & Oleg Naumov
or
The Great Terror by Robert Service.

[callmeslick]

Religion is not, but fundamentalism is pretty damn close to it, at least when it interferes with proper education. Raising children to ignore fundamental tenets of reasoning, or to bury their heads in the sand and deny basic truths, does our society and our country no favors. The numbers in the studies CUDA linked are certainly encouraging, but like slick, I've also come across people who home-school for all the wrong reasons.

sums up my point, exactly. And, CUDA, remember that I am stating part of my observations upon my(admitted) limited personal experience. I am aware and have been, of your homeschooling efforts, and you would seem to be in an ideal situation. Your spouse was in education, you seem to be reasonable enough to demand critical thinking, etc. The folks I've known personally?
Sorry, not so good. The Bible is a fine thing to study, but to skew science and other social studies to a religious model(any religion) is problematic.

[Spidey]

tunnelcat, you are aware that every “fact” you gather from your senses, is a construct of your mind, such as “solid” objects.

Every single thing you think you know about this universe is a construct, I hesitate to use illusion, because of the obvious connotations.

I hate to go all metaphysical on you…but when you start implying you can gather “facts” with your senses…well…

[Top Gun]

THAT'S PROOF?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

where I come from that's called an opinion. lets TRY to keep this on topic, I'm not interested in another Creation V Origin of species debate. if that's where you intend to go then I'm out.

You didn't ask for proof until editing your post, and I didn't see the edit until after I responded; by that point, I didn't feel like adding a bunch of stuff to my post. Either way, I've given you proof many, many, many times in various threads over the years. I shouldn't have to repeat myself at this point.

And I'm perfectly on-topic here, seeing as how Thorne brought up his reasons for home-schooling his children, which ties into the wider discussion on what kids are and aren't learning in the US.

[Foil]

Ah, this has turned to homeschooling? Interesting. I'll take a little time and post about my personal experience in a bit.

[Tunnelcat]

And yet it's still doesnt match up to what all those religion hating atheists have done just since the turn of the century

Now how is that? I don't recall atheists burning people at the stake or hanging them because they thought they were "witches" or torturing people for some implied heresy against the Church. And atheists haven't put out fatwas on people because they insulted their religion or prophet (Islam).

don't read history much then do you.

ever hear of a guy named Nero??

and these books are some light reading about this century for starters, check them out then get back to me

The Road To Terror by J Arch Getty & Oleg Naumov
or
The Great Terror by Robert Service.

Heard of them, and yes, I hadn't thought of Stalin. But another modern example looms large. You HAVE heard of Hitler I presume? I'm sure the Jews haven't forgotten him yet. History is full of evil despots of all stripes. We could go on and on with examples of bad behavior from any and all groups and their leaders.

My point is that those who think they are motivated by the best of intentions and know without question that good is on their side, ASSUME THEY ARE IN THE RIGHT and fall into a terrible evil behavior towards others with just a little charismatic persuasion or manipulation. Buy the way, people who follow these types of charismatic leaders also tend to be uneducated, unscientifically minded and unused to other people's stations and difficulties in life. Even Obama is a perfect example of such a leader.

Relating to this thread, homeschoolers are usually not exposed to the difficulties and lives of others, because they are never exposed to them in a mixed mass social setting. They are housed in their parent's home, taught in their parent's home, only play with their neighbors of the same social class and rarely see what the rest of society looks like, lives like or works like. How is that well rounded?

Spidey, you're right about my senses and facts. Those senses and what they perceive are just a construct within a single frame of reference created from the perspective of my mind. But the Bible does not mesh with my mind's frame of reference and I'm not going to alter that to suit a religion that thinks their frame of reference is the correct one above all others. We are free to choose our own realities after all.

[CUDA]

And yet it's still doesnt match up to what all those religion hating atheists have done just since the turn of the century

Now how is that? I don't recall atheists burning people at the stake or hanging them because they thought they were "witches" or torturing people for some implied heresy against the Church. And atheists haven't put out fatwas on people because they insulted their religion or prophet (Islam).

don't read history much then do you.

ever hear of a guy named Nero??

and these books are some light reading about this century for starters, check them out then get back to me

The Road To Terror by J Arch Getty & Oleg Naumov
or
The Great Terror by Robert Service.

Heard of them, and yes, I hadn't thought of Stalin. But another modern example looms large. You HAVE heard of Hitler I presume?

if you're implying that Hitler was a Christian, you might wish to research that a little farther

and I have another name for you. Pol Pot

Relating to this thread, homeschoolers are usually not exposed to the difficulties and lives of others, because they are never exposed to them in a mixed mass social setting. They are housed in their parent's home, taught in their parent's home, only play with their neighbors of the same social class and rarely see what the rest of society looks like, lives like or works like. How is that well rounded?

so is this you're opinion, or do you have facts or experiences to back it up.

[roid]

this thread is making me rage a wee bit.

- People asking for facts/proof, and then saying that facts/proof don't exist as a concept (, then uh, why did you ask for them in the first place guys?) As far as argument escape-hatches go that's a pretty dumb one.
- People keeping their kids outof education because they don't want them learning about GLOBAL WARMING of all things? You have some kindof religious beef with climate science?
- Nero was an Athiest? what.
- Hitler was an Athiest? no man, no..

Oh so we're going to get into some kindof thing about how athiests make verifiably terrible ethical desisions and there is an absolute magic source of morality eh. Wow won't this be fun, i mean it's not like this hasn't been discussed a thousand times before. Hangon let me take some rohypnol so i can play along with this totally wonderful game.

edit: just some notes for myself: Vocal posters ITT on these topics.
thorne, flip, cuda, spidey.
vs
topgun, tunnelcat, roid.

[CUDA]

People keeping their kids outof education because they don't want them learning about GLOBAL WARMING of all things?

funny I didnt realize that Homeschooling was keeping kids out of education. when in "fact" the evidence shows they get a better education than public schools in general offer..

try and keep up roid. TC brought up the Christian killing angle. my point was that Nero, a NON Christian did just as bad if not worse, and Hitler was not a Christian, contrary to what some believe.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... -christian
and he did horrific things. just as Stalin, Tojo, Mao Zedong, and Pol Pot have done. NONE of these men were Christian in their beliefs, and they are personally responsible for the deaths of about 120million people just in this century, so don't claim that Christianity has the market on it, when the "facts" show it's far from it.

[Spidey]

Somebody needs to stop combining the opinions of many people into a single mindset.

[Tunnelcat]

if you're implying that Hitler was a Christian, you might wish to research that a little farther

It's murky, I agree, but there is some evidence he thought of himself as a Christian and Germany as a Christian Nation, with the belief of an Aryan Christ. The Catholic Church did nothing to stop his Jewish Purge either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ ... olf_Hitler

Relating to this thread, homeschoolers are usually not exposed to the difficulties and lives of others, because they are never exposed to them in a mixed mass social setting. They are housed in their parent's home, taught in their parent's home, only play with their neighbors of the same social class and rarely see what the rest of society looks like, lives like or works like. How is that well rounded?

so is this you're opinion, or do you have facts or experiences to back it up.

No facts I can find, only my opinion. But it makes sense that if a child is kept at home for schooling, how does that child meet or interact with children that are in a different station? I met all sorts of kids when I was in school. Some poor, some rich, some disabled, some disfigured by accidents, some slow learners, some from other religions, some that were gender variant and some a different race. Tell me how a homeschooled kid can get that type of interaction with all those types of kids in a home setting? What parent is going to go to the extremes find that kind of variation in social norms to have their child interact with?

[Krom]

Watching the middle school kids interact as they walk by the house on their way home has led me to the conclusion that children interacting with other children who are roughly their own age is dramatically overrated as a "social" activity.

Actually, I'll go one step further and say (in My opinion) the public school systems methods of grouping kids together by age and or ability is directly harmful to their social development...Unless the actual goal of it is to turn many of them into a bunch of hooligans who may eventually graduate into outright criminals.

[CUDA]

+1

Children teaching Children how to behave is a recipe for disaster.

No facts I can find, only my opinion. But it makes sense that if a child is kept at home for schooling, how does that child meet or interact with children that are in a different station? I met all sorts of kids when I was in school. Some poor, some rich, some disabled, some disfigured by accidents, some slow learners, some from other religions, some that were gender variant and some a different race. Tell me how a homeschooled kid can get that type of interaction with all those types of kids in a home setting? What parent is going to go to the extremes find that kind of variation in social norms to have their child interact with?

as the study in my previous post pointed out, Children that are homeschooled, tend to interact better with society than public schooled kids.

Edit: the homeschooled kids that I have had contact with, and there are many. have been taught to be understanding and accept others differences. kids that are in the public setting can be brutal and hateful of those they consider "different" is that what you want children taught, to be clickish and hateful, and to bully and ostracize those that are different?

[CUDA]

if you're implying that Hitler was a Christian, you might wish to research that a little farther

It's murky, I agree, but there is some evidence he thought of himself as a Christian and Germany as a Christian Nation, with the belief of an Aryan Christ. The Catholic Church did nothing to stop his Jewish Purge either.

You are right that Hitler did mention Christianity many times in his writings. He paid Christianity a lot of lip service in Mein Kampf, and he claimed to be a Christian. But Hitler's secretary, Martin Bormann, also declared that "National Socialism [Nazism] and Christianity are irreconcilable" and Hitler didn't squawk too much about it. Similarly, Hermann Rauschning, a Hitler associate, said, "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." In addition, Hitler declared Nazism the state religion and the Bible was replaced by Mein Kampf in the schools. You really want confusion? Randy Alley, one of my best WWII history sources, noted that the SS were supposedly forbidden to believe in God--yet the military's belt buckles said "Gott mit uns" ("God is with us")

First, let's look at what he said that seems to put him on the anti-Christian side:

According to a press release from Catholic League President, William A. Donohue (2/4/99): "Hitler was a neo-pagan terrorist whose conscience was not informed by Christianity, but by pseudo-scientific racist philosophies. Hitler hated the Catholic Church, made plans to kill the Pope, authorized the murder of thousands of priests and nuns, and did everything he could to suppress the influence of the Church. In 1933, Hitler said, 'It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood.'" The Catholic League also quoted Hitler, in a 4/23/99 Op-Ed ad in the New York Times, as saying, "Antiquity was better than modern times, because it didn't know Christianity and syphilis." Ouch!

[dissent]

The Catholic Church did nothing to stop his Jewish Purge either.

Was the Catholic Church supposed to call up its troops?
You may differ on whether Pius XII did enough, but even a brief review of Wikipedia suggests it is not factual to claim that Pius, let alone the Catholic Church, "did nothing".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_ ... _Holocaust
(see the several references from Jewish organizations noted therein)

edit: you won't be surprised to find that Catholic sources have even more information,
such as these -
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/h ... h0004.html
http://www.catholic.com/documents/how-p ... ected-jews

[Tunnelcat]

Watching the middle school kids interact as they walk by the house on their way home has led me to the conclusion that children interacting with other children who are roughly their own age is dramatically overrated as a "social" activity.

Actually, I'll go one step further and say (in My opinion) the public school systems methods of grouping kids together by age and or ability is directly harmful to their social development...Unless the actual goal of it is to turn many of them into a bunch of hooligans who may eventually graduate into outright criminals.

Yeah, I have to agree with both conclusions. With all the bullying going on, now and in the past, I don't think the adults the run the schools even care how the kids interact with each other socially. Kids can be cruel to each other, especially within the same age group. That particular type of behavior needs to be addressed by adults constantly if kids are to learn to respect their piers, but sadly, it rarely is. Parents are lazy, busy, disagree with or don't care and it shows in our schools. I was a victim of bullying all the way through high school and I made me think most other kids were hateful, nasty, little MF's. Teachers were worthless outside of the school grounds, and not much more effective on grounds if they didn't see the crap going on right then and there. I hated walking home from school because I was tormented constantly. Of course the code of conduct was to not tell your parents, or the torture would only get worse because no one kept up any enforcement.

But I still think that kids somehow need to see how other kids in the world live and act just to learn how other people exist in the world. If I had stayed within that little click of my own friends at home all through my school years, I would have had a more rosy time of it during childhood and never had to deal with bullies, but I also would have not seen how other kids live their lives, or learned how to deal with those with the antisocial behaviors that kids usually show towards one another either. Being in a bubble is not a life experience. It may have been unpleasant at times, but it was still a necessary learning experience.

CUDA, dissent, why was Hitler never excommunicated from the Catholic Church for being a mass murderer, all the while Martin Luther was excommunicated just for criticizing the papacy? Convenience or reward for killing all those Jesus murdering Jews OR was it because he didn't fit the proper reason for someone to be excommunicated, in other words, he didn't rise to heresy? I think mass murder and genocide would be heretical to any Church's beliefs, even above dissing the Pope.

[dissent]

CUDA, dissent, why was Hitler never excommunicated from the Catholic Church for being a mass murderer, all the while Martin Luther was excommunicated just for criticizing the papacy? Convenience or reward for killing all those Jesus murdering Jews OR was it because he didn't fit the proper reason for someone to be excommunicated, in other words, he didn't rise to heresy? I think mass murder and genocide would be heretical to any Church's beliefs, even above dissing the Pope.

Well, TC, I'm struggling with how it is possible to compare the actions of a priest (and a renegade one, in the Catholic's eyes), with the activities of a lunatic mass-murderer, and how you think it is that excommunication would have had any effect on Hitler at all, since he was not , in reality, a Catholic, though he had been baptized in the Church in his infancy. And, since you are clutching to the excommunication trope, does this mean that you now concede that is not true that the Catholic Church "did nothing" to protect the Jews in Europe during the 1930's and 40's?

Scroll down to starting at post #55 in this thread at the Catholic Answers forums for a few posts containing contemporaneous newspapers accounts from that time.

[CUDA]

Being in a bubble is not a life experience.

home-schooled kids are NOT in a bubble. that's just an unfounded BS characterization by those that don't like the movement. it is a lie.

the facts are, home-schooled kids generally are better educated and more prepared to deal with the adult world then public schooled kids

[Tunnelcat]

OK dissent, history has hidden whatever went on with the Catholic Church, in my opinion. We'll never really know. If they were so terrified of Hitler, why wasn't he denounced and excommunicated after the war? He was dead, Fascism was gone, but he still had a tenuous connection to the Church being born a Roman Catholic. If I were the Catholic leadership after the war, I'd have made sure any and all connections to that monster, however small, were forever severed in a very public fashion. It would have made great PR for the Church, unless they were hiding something and didn't want to put a spotlight on it.

I wanted to add a modern example. What about this guy and his ideas of what his religion should be doing in the political arena?

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012 ... can-budget

CUDA, since I'm obviously clueless about homeschooling, tell me how parents would go about socializing their kids to other kids of different races, creeds, religions, gender and incomes? Don't tell me that parents would never have some type of bias towards at least one of these social classifications.

[dissent]

OK dissent, history has hidden whatever went on with the Catholic Church, in my opinion. We'll never really know. If they were so terrified of Hitler, why wasn't he denounced and excommunicated after the war? He was dead,

Indeed, yes, he was dead. And the dead are not excommunicated. Excommunication is for the reproof of the living.

I wanted to add a modern example. What about this guy and his ideas of what his religion should be doing in the political arena?

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012 ... can-budget

heh. Dana Milbank. There's a non-partisan perspective for you. This is drifting off the thread topic. Go ahead and split it to a new thread if you'd like.