Finally got the source!

Feedback for the Outrage Entertainment D3 dev team members - bug reports, patch issues, your raves (or rants).
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DCrazy
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Post by DCrazy » Fri Feb 06, 2004 5:14 pm

D'oh. Thanks for clearing that up. Seems like common sense should have told me that.
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Post by Dreamz » Sat Feb 07, 2004 3:23 am

*OMG*
Add a new ship while your add it, new ship would b cool!
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Post by Ferno » Sat Feb 07, 2004 1:31 pm

no
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Post by SSX-Thunderbird » Sat Feb 07, 2004 2:47 pm

A new ship would also extend the time to release the patch. Personally, I think we have enough ships.
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Post by AceCombat » Sat Feb 07, 2004 3:27 pm

fix the level 13 goals bug aswell
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Post by BUBBALOU » Sat Feb 07, 2004 5:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by AceCombat:
fix the level 13 goals bug aswell</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont worry Ace there is a huge bug list, so there is not need to post a duplicate request!
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Post by IsAB » Sat Feb 07, 2004 6:41 pm

...There is light at the end of the tunnel!!!!
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Post by KompresZor » Sat Feb 07, 2004 7:46 pm

/me faints
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Post by Suncho » Sat Feb 07, 2004 7:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by AceCombat:
fix the level 13 goals bug aswell</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remove the singleplayer. That'll fix it. ;)
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Post by Top Gun » Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:07 pm

Shut up Suncho Image
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Post by Skyalmian » Sat Feb 07, 2004 9:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by AceCombat:
fix the level 13 goals bug aswell</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a level script bug, not one with main.exe.
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Post by DCrazy » Sun Feb 08, 2004 8:18 am

And for the same reason, no new ships could be added in 1.5. That would involve patching the main hogfile, and that means a HUGE download.

At least the Level 13 bug is a valid concern. "Add a new ship!" is simply ridiculous.
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Post by Krom » Sun Feb 08, 2004 11:49 am

Actually, fixing the level 13 bug would only require a replacement dll for the windows version and the same files for the linux/macintosh.
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Post by AceCombat » Sun Feb 08, 2004 11:54 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by Suncho:
Remove the singleplayer. That'll fix it. Image</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by Top Gun:
Shut up Suncho Image</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

really Image
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Post by DCrazy » Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:21 pm

And where is that DLL stored? In the hogfile.
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Post by Tyranny » Sun Feb 08, 2004 1:36 pm

on the ship issue, how about taking out the penix and the tank and make it just the pyro like the good ol days? *waits for stuff to get thrown at him* Image
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Post by Darkside Heartless » Sun Feb 08, 2004 1:47 pm

*throws desk at tyranny Image
I like the Tank, leave it as is.
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Post by Krom » Sun Feb 08, 2004 1:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by DCrazy:
And where is that DLL stored? In the hogfile.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DCrazy, did you know that the 1.1 patch includes parts that patch the main D3 hog file? They changed how quickly Fusion fires in either 1.1 or 1.2 via the table file that is stored in the hog file. You can patch a 200 MB file with a 1 KB patch.

-Krom
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Post by Kevin Bentley » Sun Feb 08, 2004 2:00 pm

The game has the ability to override individual files within the hog. That's why there are some extra.hog files we included with later patches. The newer version of the game just loaded the new hog after the main hog was loaded, and any file in the extra.hog takes precedence.

So it can be done....but patching individual level scripting bugs will have to come a bit later...
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Post by SSX-Thunderbird » Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:42 pm

If the Level 13 goals bug you refer to is the fact that the mission ends before all of the Stormtrooper bots are destroyed, THIS IS NOT A BUG. The EXACT wording of the objective is: Reduce the Stormtrooper threat. It DOES NOT say to destroy all of the Stormtrooper bots!
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Post by Top Gun » Sun Feb 08, 2004 5:03 pm

Thunderbird, I think he's referring to the "Shut Down Engine Core" objective not registering properly. The Guide-bot says, "Tertiary objective completed," but the objective never reads as completed. What I really wish had worked in that mission is the "Find Stormtrooper" command; it would've made things a lot easier. Image
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Post by SSX-Thunderbird » Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:41 pm

Yeah...but which Stormtrooper?
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Post by DCrazy » Sun Feb 08, 2004 8:05 pm

The closest one? Or maybe the next one in a predetermined list?
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Post by Top Gun » Sun Feb 08, 2004 8:07 pm

I was just thinking along the lines of the closest one to you at the moment. Something like the "Find a robot" command, except specified for Stormtroopers. I thought the hardest part of that level was just finding all of the semi-hidden areas containing Stormtroopers. Image
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Post by Moon » Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:35 am

<font face="Arial" size="3">What I really wish had worked in that mission is the "Find Stormtrooper" command; it would've made things a lot easier.</font>


Actually, that was done on purpose, wasn't it? So as to make this objective a little more challenging, which it really was due to the way the D3 automap works. Unfortunately it does not color unvisited parts of the mines differently when you've picked up the full map powerup! Instead you'll be shown the whole map in it's normal colors. Thus to prevent losing orientation avoid the full map so you can recognize unvisited rooms by a blinking portal (= connection between two rooms).

However, my idea of a patch is more about fixing bugs than anything else and despite the great (and unpaid) efforts that have been put in the 1.4 patch there are still quite some bugs left which should be taken care of like the hazzle with the demo recording system.

Kevin, thanks again for your hard work and please mail me if you wanna include the text version of the D3 FAQ in the patch as we did with 1.4. I might have missed your mail due to the ridiculous amount of spam I'm getting daily.
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Post by DigiJo » Mon Feb 09, 2004 5:34 am

finding the stormtroopers was relativ easy with the "find robot" command except one stormtrooper being inactive in a cage in the cargoroom or?

anyway i think some other problems are more important to fix, like the bug where you cant load savegames on user-made sp-missions with lots of custom objects and textures. sometimes it works to restart the sp-mission and then load the game with alt-f3. just loading the savegame does crash d3.

and would be fine to have more "slots" free for custom objects, custom textures and so on, that way we could make some nice levels.

heh and 512x512 textures Image
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Post by Tyranny » Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:52 am

How about fixing the problem where objects can kill you through walls?

Such as smart missiles or impact mortars / megas . I know this is a lag related issue but hell, if CS is supposed to be the be all and end all of hosting net games these days atleast it should get the damn packets right and figure out that you're using the walls to shield yourself. Not even on the laggiest connections did D1 or D2 ever do this very often while playing p2p.

Its kinda lame that most people ping the servers at 100ms or lower and you get taken out by a smart missile that you already saw the boblets impact the wall as you went around the corner and then you just randomly die. Image
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Post by AceCombat » Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:36 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by Top Gun:
Thunderbird, I think he's referring to the "Shut Down Engine Core" objective not registering properly. The Guide-bot says, "Tertiary objective completed," but the objective never reads as completed.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes thats the one i was talking about
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Post by Suncho » Mon Feb 09, 2004 1:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by Tyranny:
<b> How about fixing the problem where objects can kill you through walls?

Such as smart missiles or impact mortars / megas . I know this is a lag related issue but hell, if CS is supposed to be the be all and end all of hosting net games these days atleast it should get the damn packets right and figure out that you're using the walls to shield yourself. Not even on the laggiest connections did D1 or D2 ever do this very often while playing p2p.
</b></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you want D3 to act like every other game out there, play permissable client/server. If you want to sacrifice some accurateness for some smoothness, play non-permissable client/server.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by Tyranny:
Its kinda lame that most people ping the servers at 100ms or lower and you get taken out by a smart missile that you already saw the boblets impact the wall as you went around the corner and then you just randomly die. Image</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only if you fly in straight lines. Image
It's not all lag-related either. The corner ones are, but some of it has to do with the way the game keeps track of which weapon-fire packets you need to receive. If a smart missile is timed right, someone could fire it in a part of a level that you're not receiving packets from, and then you move towards that part, it hits the wall somewhere where it can lock onto you, but you'll never see it. That's also what causes guided missiles to be invisible if they're shot from somewhere else in the level. Also, in certain levels ships just appear out of nowhere after they come around a corner or something. That's also related.
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Post by kurupt » Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:48 pm

"Only if you fly in straight lines.
It's not all lag-related either. The corner ones are, but some of it has to do with the way the game keeps track of which weapon-fire packets you need to receive. If a smart missile is timed right, someone could fire it in a part of a level that you're not receiving packets from, and then you move towards that part, it hits the wall somewhere where it can lock onto you, but you'll never see it. That's also what causes guided missiles to be invisible if they're shot from somewhere else in the level. Also, in certain levels ships just appear out of nowhere after they come around a corner or something. That's also related."

exactly why i waited until last year to finally stick with d3. that part was very very hard to get over Image
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Post by Tyranny » Mon Feb 09, 2004 5:38 pm

heh, either way get it straight. If an object was already fired and impacted on a surface before you even get there, it shouldn't still hit or kill you at all since the objects no longer exist. The connections are good enough for that information to be sent in the packets, it should know better.

As long as the games being played are still subjected to the server settings on PXO, theres really not much choice in the matter for me in regards to how the server host sets up the server.

Thats why for a time I enjoyed playing a lot more on Kali using TCP/IP P2P because stupid stuff like this didn't happen. After a while though it gets boring because theres not enough people on kali that play at the moment for there to be a wide spread variety of levels being played.

Also another suggestion, how about making smart missiles actually do splash damage like they're supposed to when they're fired while the ship is directly close to the floor or wall or even the ceiling for that matter. In D1/D2 they do this. I've seen people kill themselves with plasma in D3 on accident, I've even done it myself while being close to the walls, even though the plasma cannon shouldn't do any splash damage at all, but yet a smart missile exploding in front of you that you fired doesn't?

meh, I've enjoyed D1/D2 so much....D3 totally ruined it for me and yet I still continue wanting / trying to play it. I guess I've hoped that the 1.5 patch will make D3 into a game more like Descent then it has been. Instead of a secondaries free for all.

Might actually make some people who refused to play it when it came out start playing it. *shrug*
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Post by Mr. Perfect » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:16 pm

"Huge" download for a comprehensive patch? Most game patches these days are over 100 megs, and since D3 is so old, I bet you'd have a hard time to make a patch even half that big without adding new content.
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Post by Krom » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:32 pm

Tyranny, no patch for D3 is ever going to fix the internet, get over it.

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Post by Tyranny » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:26 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by Krom:
<b> Tyranny, no patch for D3 is ever going to fix the internet, get over it.

-Krom</b></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol, you're right, but the internet handles MUCH more then D3s crappy net code seems to handle and the netcode CAN be fixed. Lets face it, even some of the older games played on dial-up ended up handling broadband connections better then D3 does.

When you ping almost every server at 50ms or lower I expect logical game physics to apply itself. Not a buncha dropped packet phantom shots/kills like when almost everybody playing Descent had 500-800ms pings.
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Post by Kevin Bentley » Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:12 am

As someone who spent a lot of time on the crappy netcode in D3, I'd invite you do show us how much better it can be done by writing it yourself.

D3 has a lot of differences from D1/D2, and something that might seem obvious can be pretty tough to solve at times.
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Post by [DWL]Punk » Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:31 am

yeah i dunno why all you guys keep bitchin about the netcode..
it must suck to think that all there is to life is thinking about how much d1/d2 is different from d3.

"exactly why i waited until last year to finally stick with d3. that part was very very hard to get over " - you waited entirly to long my fellow cow town friend.

hey kev, keep up the good work man, it's awesome to see someone still working on this even after the entire company when down. i bet MI isn't so great now huh Image

now i heard that FSAA 8x and AA 16x will work for 1.5 correct?
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Post by Krom » Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:03 am

If anything, D3's netcode is quite a bit over the bar compared to other games. Like Halo for instance, I've kept track of how much data is transfered in a Halo game vs a D3 game of roughly the same players and duration. Halo transfers almost twice as much data, the players are much slower and the game in general is slowed paced then D3, and still it feels laggy at times.

D3 feels pretty good at 120MS or less most of the time as long as you arent playing against a bunch of lossy players and there is no loss yourself. Getting killed by invisible smart missiles and smart missiles through walls is less a problem with D3s netcode and more a problem with playing in that retarded 14player indika server.
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Post by Tyranny » Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:36 am

Krom, you're comparing a game that was designed specifically for the PC and netplay to a game that was almost a direct port, other then the netplay modifications made to it, from a console.

Kev, I don't mean to bash your work at all. I've just been a passionate Descenter for far to long and D3 just wasn't what I expected it to be even though it has the ability to be. I mean, in ways it is a LOT like D1/D2 but then in other ways it isn't. The unfortunate part is those things that it lacks in similarities are some of the primary reasons a lot of Descenters just didn't get into it.

There are people still playing D1/D2 on Kali. D1 is going on 10 years old and already D3 PXO looks like Kali did about a year ago when things really started to die down and it's only going on 6 years old. I'd say thats pretty good considering. D3 being on PXO brought in its own crowd and established its own seperate identity which, despite the alienation from oldschool descenters, is a great accomplishment. I'm sure the patch will breath new life into it, hell, there are very few games that can say they've gotten a pretty major patch that have been around as long as D3 has.

I even got this PC just to play D3 and in the long run I've logged more hours in Diablo II then I ever have in D3 lol. This however was my choice to make, all I'm really hoping for is that the 1.5 patch offers enough improvements to D3 that I enjoy playing it more. Thats really all I'm asking and from what I've read it has all the makings of doing so.

D3 is fun when I do play it, but it still doesn't feel like "Descent". I have a harder time with it being that I've spent years trying to perfect playing style(s) that D3 just totally blasts to all hell Image But I've learned to change my styles and approach and learn all the possibilities that D3 can throw at you and still hold my own in the game. I've played more D3 in the last year then I had when I got the game when it first came out.

Anyways, just keep up what you're doing. I'm not hesitant to voice my opinions on things but I did not intend to insult you or your work. They're "my" opinions after all and if I had any knowledge on how to help improve D3 I would gladly offer my assistence to make things easier, but I don't, so all I can do is just voice my opinion.

At the moment my opinions are still a bit disgruntled, years of disliking the game that you're trying to get into will do that to you Image Who knows, my opinions may very well change when you release the patch.
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Post by Suncho » Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by Tyranny:
I have a harder time with it being that I've spent years trying to perfect playing style(s) that D3 just totally blasts to all hell.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So then you realize that if Kevin changes D3 to be what *you* want, almost every D3 player out there will have a hard time wrestling with the fact that they've been trying to perfect playing styles that the 1.5 patch just totally blasts to hell.
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Post by Tyranny » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:34 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by Tyranny:
But I've learned to change my styles and approach and learn all the possibilities that D3 can throw at you and still hold my own in the game.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't skim suncho, its a bad habit Image What I'm asking is the game be more like Descent, which it shapes up to be the more and more you play it. Any and all improvements that can be made to the game can only make it better in that regard.
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