Time to axe this forum.

Feedback for the Outrage Entertainment D3 dev team members - bug reports, patch issues, your raves (or rants).
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Mobius
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Time to axe this forum.

Post by Mobius » Sun Jun 29, 2003 10:39 pm

With Outrage not even interested in replying to requests about the 1.5 patch - and with no interest whatsoever in developing any other Descent games, it's time to put this dog down once and for all.

Kill it.

*sigh*
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Post by Vindicator » Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:12 pm

But then mikem and Fugue will be out of a job... Image
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Post by Skyalmian » Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:28 pm

They stopped reading the DBB years ago.
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Post by Suncho » Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:44 pm

I'll moderate this forum.
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Post by Kevin Bentley » Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:26 am

Hey, I still come here occasionally!

As a matter of fact, I was playing D3 on PXO last night. My son (who was born after we finished D3) is now a D3 addict, and wants to play all the time. I'm having to set him up with a faster computer so we can play together.

Anyway, thought about 1.5 aren't lost. I'm working on it....standby!
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Post by DarkShadow » Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by Kevin Bentley:
<b> Hey, I still come here occasionally!

As a matter of fact, I was playing D3 on PXO last night. My son (who was born after we finished D3) is now a D3 addict, and wants to play all the time. I'm having to set him up with a faster computer so we can play together.

Anyway, thought about 1.5 aren't lost. I'm working on it....standby!</b></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow and we thought no one invloved with the game came here at all anymore. Image

Cool Image I wish I my son could do that. If my son didn't have Autism I would teach him to play too but he's too hyper to sit that long. Image

YAY so 1.5 may come out yet. Somehow I knew if anyone was gonna finish it it would end up being you. Image
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Post by Grendel » Wed Jul 23, 2003 12:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by Kevin Bentley:
<b> My son (who was born after we finished D3) is now a D3 addict, and wants to play all the time. I'm having to set him up with a faster computer so we can play together.

Anyway, thought about 1.5 aren't lost. I'm working on it....standby!</b></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for the heads up Kevin ! It would really come handy for shaking the cheaters out the games Image If you want to let your son loose online, we ([NuB]) are running "safe" games for our youngest member (she's 7 IIRC) regulary -- if interested, check w/ Deadmeat, Red Barchetta or me in PXO.
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Post by DigiJo » Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:26 am

hey now that is some good news Image
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Post by CDN_Merlin » Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:14 am

Kevin is from Outrage and help in making D3 IIRC. Image
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Post by Vertigo 5 » Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:26 am

Well, this is great to hear. =) However, I heard from one of the beta testers that 1.5 doesn't completely stamp out cheating. I heard that it only prevents "a simple table file hack." There are some people who use other methods to cheat.

It's also great to hear from you, Kevin. It's also nice to hear that you still play and pass it on to your son and what not. =) It was sad not having you in chat shortly before November 1st and afterward and even now.
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Post by Kyouryuu » Thu Jul 24, 2003 8:39 am

You're never going to stop the cheating. Some loser will sit behind a computer for hours and figure a way around it. That's just the way some people are. Deprived of the finer things in life, their thrill is to ruin things for others. Maybe they were dropped as babies or something.

The question is, once we get version 1.5, which we might as well assume would be the last, what defense will we have when the cheaters come to ruin that? Image

(Hi, Kevin! ^-^)
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Post by CDN_WingMan » Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:10 am

Wow, good old Kevin.
There was a Kevin from outrage at Califest 1, was that you? if so Hi again Image

As for cheating, its almost impossible to stamp it out totally, but some games have an awesome setup, like return to castle wolfenstein, where they have punkbuster built in. This client side code is updated all the time, as new cheats are found.

I mainly play Americas Army these days and that game is full of hacks compared to D3, the Outrage guys actually did a pretty good job on D3's code to reduce hacking.
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Post by JMEaT » Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:26 am

Good to see you and your son are doing well, Kevin. Image
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Post by Deadmeat » Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:13 pm

Kevin, so good of you to let us know the 1.5 patch is not a dead horse. And I must agree, there is no way to stop real cheaters, but at least the 1.5 patch will stop the "kiddies" from altering game table files.

And Kevin, to echo Grendel, Team [NuB] would be very happy to have your son play with us. It's part of our mission to provide a "safe" environment for new players.

Again, thanx for the update.
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Post by Grendel » Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by Vertigo 5:
However, I heard from one of the beta testers that 1.5 doesn't completely stamp out cheating. I heard that it only prevents "a simple table file hack."</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know. Since CF I've a pretty good idea what the ships can do but I see better performance all the time online -- I think Image. It's really hard to spot or even proof a well done fine tuning of the table files (eg. homing vauss, toughter shields, faster sliding, better acceleration etc.) and it's too easy to do. So having 1.5 should at least weed out this kind of cheating and I know I'd more enjoy playing pickup games.
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Post by SuperSheep » Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:58 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by [Grendel]:
<b> [QUOTE]Originally posted by Vertigo 5:
It's really hard to spot or even proof a well done fine tuning of the table files (eg. homing vauss, toughter shields, faster sliding, better acceleration etc.) and it's too easy to do. So having 1.5 should at least weed out this kind of cheating and I know I'd more enjoy playing pickup games.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Homing vauss...not possible.

Tougher shields...One could give themselves shields but this is not controlled in the table file.

And I really must go on record to say that the whole myth of dropping packets is just that...a myth.

Damage packets are sent out reliably. This means that if they do not reach their destination, they will be resent until they do. You can simply not escape damage packets. So...the term dropping packets used currently as a accusation to the person who you think should be dying, is actually a problem server side or on your end, i.e., you're not sending the weapon fire or the server is fubared. The client can not escape damage packets once they are sent.
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Post by Mr. Perfect » Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:34 pm

Hear hear! Horrah for 1.5!

Now Mobius can relax his stranglehold on those fairies a little. Image
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Post by Grendel » Thu Jul 24, 2003 6:20 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by SuperSheep:
<b> Homing vauss...not possible.

Tougher shields...One could give themselves shields but this is not controlled in the table file.</b></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Weapon:Vauss:flags:silent homing, check.
Ship: Pyro-GL:Armor scalar, decrease from 1. to .87 to have tank shield.
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Post by Krom » Thu Jul 24, 2003 7:22 pm

That stuff wont work in MP...

-Krom
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Post by STRESSTEST » Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:47 am

Great news Kevin. I just started playing again Image
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Post by Mobius » Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:06 pm

Supersheep, I think you're seeing the "packet dropping" issue from the wrong side of the fence.

Simply put, dropping packets is YOUR upstream loss, not anything on the server. You are skipping about the place because ship position packets are NOT reliable....

So player A fires at Player B (The lossy client). The fusion blob of Player A travels towards Player B, and under normal circumstances would hit Player B squarely on the side - killing them.

However, Player B is lossy, and D3 doesn't interpolate ship positions between packets... so Player B drops 2 position packets, and travels from one safe side of the fusion shot, to the other, with the fusion passing harmlessly between his positions.

THAT'S "dropping packets".

As far as delayed damage - yes, you can take damage a LONG time after being hit: I seem to recall my modem playing days, sometimes getting damage packets up to 3-4 seconds after being "hit". So it does seem unlikely you can escape a damage packet - although the server isn't stupid - if an ACK isn't recieved after several tries - eventually it will give up trying to send the damage packet. Who knows how long it takes though? And if a connection is THAT flakey, D3 is gonna be sucking royally anyway.

=================================================================

As to 1.5: I wouldn't hold my breath. One guy saying he's working on it does NOT a patch release, mean! No insult intended to Kevin, but we have had MULTIPLE promises and assurances from Outrage employees regarding the release of 1.5.

We understand there's no official support for the 1.5 patch, and that employees have been working on it in their spare time in the past.

Personally, I'd bet good money the 1.5 patch is dead, or at least won't see the light of day until D3 is 5 years old. By which time, D3 *REALLY* will be dead.
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Post by Ferno » Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:10 pm

Mobi.. guess how 1.4 came about. yep, from just one person's hard work. Kevin's. So why can't you offer words of support instead of potentially pissing the guy off?
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Post by Suncho » Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:33 pm

You think d3 will be dead in less than a year, Mobius?
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Post by Kyouryuu » Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:36 pm

No, that's just when Mobius plans to leave Descent 3 for other pastures, so it must be dead in his eyes! Image

Gah. One writes some giant guide about Descent 3 that's mostly personal opinion and thinks they are a god of all that is Descent. Image
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Post by Skyalmian » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:19 am

<font face="Arial" size="3">Gah. One writes some giant guide about Descent 3 that's mostly personal opinion and thinks they are a god of all that is Descent. </font>
Not all of Descent. Remember, he despises D1 and D2 with a passion. Image
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Post by Ferno » Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:33 am

I just remembered.. where's a 'stfu Mobius' pic when you need one?
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Post by Kevin Bentley » Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:37 pm

For you doubters out there, I have a 1.5 patch that has many fixes and has been tested. All I need is permission to release it (supported by me). I have all the D3 source still, and I could release patches all the time, as long as I have permission from the copyright holder...
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Post by snoopy » Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:46 pm

Image legal issues are never fun...
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Post by Grendel » Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by Kevin Bentley:
I have all the D3 source still, and I could release patches all the time, as long as I have permission from the copyright holder...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just make sure you store backup copies in at least 2 different locations -- one never knows, maybe someday the (c) holders will decide to release the src... Don't flame me, I like optimistic thinking Image
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Post by Duper » Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:41 pm

Well.. as lond as Interplay isn't involved, it shouldn't be a problem.

I heard a rumor that Outrage is going under. :\
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Post by Ferno » Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:28 pm

who is the copyright holder anyways? it can't be Interplay.. they just publish the games and have rights to the name only.
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Post by Mr. Perfect » Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:40 pm

Parallax owns Descent.
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Post by Pugwash » Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:52 pm

My understanding was that the release of 1.5 was being held up by the MAC version not being completed (or maybe not started??).
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Post by Ferno » Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:15 pm

Perf: ok well that would be outrage/volition..
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Post by DigiJo » Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:04 am

well at least somemone is on it after all this years. sounds to me like a real descenter Image
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Post by Delkian » Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by Pugwash:
My understanding was that the release of 1.5 was being held up by the MAC version not being completed (or maybe not started??).</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, this was what I was also thinking. I definitely hope that if it ever comes out, it's not only for the Windows version. Well, even that would be better than no patch... I guess. Maybe.

In any case, it's very cool to see this news, Kevin! More power to you!
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Post by Duper » Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:35 pm

actually, The Descent title is owned by Volition, Outrage, and Interplay. It's my understanding that each owns a different part of the game. The internet source, I was told long ago, is in ownership of Interplay, as are the movies.
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Post by Mr. Perfect » Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:12 pm

Parallax owns the rights to Descent. The compandy still exists in name only(owned by the two founders). Yes, the Parallax employees split into Outrage and Volition, but Parallax still owns the copyrights. Interplay owns the publishing rights. Orbital had to cut through all this BS when they tried to get authorization to do D4.
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Post by Ferno » Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:17 am

ok well that solves that.
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