Shoku wrote:We will never come to an agreement on this, so this will be my last post on this topic.
Well, I've had fun (and learned a lot) discussing it, thanks for participating! And also, how incredibly generous of you to give the Trinists the last word!
Jesus is, and why this whole mess exists. All the answers are there, waiting to be uncovered.
I agree 100%!
LORD our God is one LORD Mark 12:29 "one God and Father of all" Eph 4:4
This is entirely compatible with the doctrine of the Trinity. "I and my Father are One". John 10:30. The Trinity IS one God.
"The Father is greater than I am." John 14:28
IF we take the view that Christ is a created being, we have a conflict here. We have this statement, but we also have "I and my Father are One". But, Phil 2:6-7 clears up the mystery. "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men"
The Incarnate Christ was 100% God, and 100% man. As God, He was equal to God. As man, He was inferior. Both are true. When Jesus says that "My Father is greater than I", it is specifically in reference to His incarnation
You list several texts where Christ (or someone else) refers to God the Father as God. Most specifically as "My God".
John 17:3, 6 -8, 17,18, 20 - 23; John 20:17; Mark 15:34; Rev 3:12; 1 Peter 1:3
We have a slight problem here, because when Thomas uses "My God", (mou theos) in John 20:28 you said he wasn't actually calling Jesus the almighty God. But, that's beside the point, because I obviously believe that a Jew saying "mou theos" (or actually the Hebrew or Aramaic equivalent) WOULD be referring to Yahweh, the almighty God.
There is nothing odd about Jesus calling God the Father "My God". That's what God the Father IS. What else would Jesus call Him, except Father? But we can see from John 20:17 that Jesus treats the words Father and God as synonyms. The fact that Jesus is God does not make God the Father any less God.
"You shall worship the LORD your God, and serve Him only." Matthew 4:8 -10
Again, entirely compatible with the doctrine of the Trinity. There is only one God, and that God is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Lucifer didn't make the list.
this is not mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father." Matthew 20:23
Christ incarnate as man was subject to the Father. No problem there. In Revelation we see the Glorified Christ claiming the specific right to decide who sits with him: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne." Rev 3:21
The same applies to Luke 22: 41,42; John 5: 30;
"Jesus answered them. "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods?'" If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming'; because I said, 'I am God's son?'" John 10:34-36
In John 10:30, Jesus claimed equality with God. The Jews are about to stone him for that. In response, he quotes Psalms 82:6 and says that if humans could be called "gods" in a lesser sense, then how can you condemn the very Son of God for claiming his title?
Christ is obviously claiming to be God in a greater sense then was referred to in the Psalms 82, but how much greater? That was made clear just previously in John 10:28 when Jesus said he could grant Eternal Life, and John 10:30 when He said, "I and my Father are one"
nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him." John 13:16
Christ never claimed to be greater than God the Father!
God is a Spirit John 4:24
Yes, and omnipotent, which means He can incarnate in flesh if He wishes.
and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1Timothy 2:5
But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense- Jesus Christ, the Righteous One." 1 John 2:1
God condescended to be come man, so that we could have a mediator. Christ is our mediator because He is both God and man.
and God is the head of Christ." 1 Corinthians 11:3
To quote Nichol, "Even among equals there may be a head. A committee of men of equal rank still selects its chairman." This also explains 1 Corinthians 15:28
"This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins" 1 John 4: 9.10
Which again supports that there is something drastically different in the nature of Christ and all created beings. If Christ is a created son, then He is only one of countless other created sons, and how could He be referred to as the "one and only son"? Begetting is not the same as creating.
"No man has seen God at any time." John 1:18
"No man may see God and live." Exodus 33:20
Man has only seen God through a veil, as Moses did on the mountain. In Christ, Divinity was veiled in flesh so that we might come close to it. Which is why Christ could say, "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" in John 14:8
he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." Col 1:13-15
The grammar here WILL allow the interpretation that Christ was created, but that interpretation would then leave us in conflict with Christ receiving worship and forgiving sins, Christ claiming to be the "I AM", Christ claiming to be one with the father, Christ as the "only Begotten", etc. So we have to ask if the "created" claim is required by the text, or if there is another possible interpretation that would be in harmony with the rest of scripture. And such an interpretation IS possible. This text would be in harmony with the rest of Scripture if it is using "Firstborn" to express a position of authority (as the Firstborn held in that time). Then the text simply means that Christ has authority over all creation.
I admit, it's not as satisfying an answer as I would like, but, as Peter said:
"even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16
Ha! Yes I sometimes find Paul difficult in places. But we must interpret scripture by scripture, and this one difficult text by the countless other simple ones that clearly declare Christ as fully divine.
Again, I have appreciated the exchange and will keep you in my prayers as I hope you will keep me in yours.
Kilarin