Pelosi, Impeach Trump

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:24 pm

Cognitive dissonance's a ★■◆●. They just can't come to grips that their guy, their hero, is corrupt to the core and is so bold about it that he knows he can get away with it because the Senate won't do anything about it. The Republicans have lost the last bit of any moral compass they used to have. It's almost comical to watch Fox News and all the gyrations and BS they've been spinning just to see what sticks. Sure, the whistleblower got his or her information second hand, but the ICIG called the complaint credible and Trump's idiot release of some of his own transcripts pretty much verified it. It also turns out that WH staffers were so worried about the content of Trump's little talk with the Ukrainian president that they moved the files from the regular unclassified server normally used for phone transcripts to a super secret classified server in order to hide it. That's apparently not the first time those staffer's have done it either, so there's probably some pretty incriminating stuff on that secret classified server that SHOULDN'T be called classified either and that Congress needs to have look at.

Here are links to both the whistleblower's complaint and ICIG's letter regarding the complaint.

https://intelligence.house.gov/uploaded ... nclass.pdf

https://intelligence.house.gov/uploaded ... nclass.pdf

Oh, and the weird backstory as to WHY Trump was really asking for a little "help" from the Ukrainian president, conspiracy theory weird.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/zmjy ... phone-call

And here's how conservativeland sees the conspiracy. "But, BUT, what about her emails? Russia didn't hack the DNC either."

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/20 ... owdstrike/

All this these shenanigans to try and somehow prove that Russia didn't hack the DNC's servers, didn't help get Trump elected because the FBI never actually examined the DNC servers (despite that recently exfiltrated spy's account that "Yeah, Putin ordered the hacking") and that Roger Stone is an innocent victim because Russia really didn't help Trump or hack the DNC. Sheesh.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:17 am

Tell me TC, do you know anything about The law? Do you know the difference between hearsay and direct testimony? The CIA whistle blower "heard" from others is hearsay and not admissible. This is like the latest Kavenaugh accusation from a guy claiming he commited a sex act to a woman who can't remember the incident nor can her friends. In short the pathetic attempt by Dems and their newsy friends to slander people with specious and uncorroborated fantasies is like reading about bat boy in some tabloid. I suggest, TC you read the actual transcript in stead of being led like a jew to the ovens.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:11 am

You don't see a problem with the President asking a foreign leader to investigate his frontrunner political opponent, using government aid as leverage?

Christ, if I were you, I'd be worried that Trump is too stupid to know that he shouldn't say Biden's name on the call. He should've limited himself to euphemisms like "corruption," and letting his bagman Giuliani say the name "Biden" behind the scenes.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:19 am

Vander stop playing stupid. Like TC, you should really read the transcript instead of believing the parody version Scgiff read.
And I guess you have no problem with Biden telling a foreign president to fire the prosecutor investigating his son or else he will hold up aid money.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:06 am

I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike... I guess you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation. I think you're surrounding yourself with some of the same people. I would like to have the Attorney General call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with Ukraine. Whatever you can do, it's very important that you do it if that's possible

Good because I heard you had a prosecutor who was very good and he was shut down and that's really unfair. A lot of people are talking about that, the way they shut your very good prosecutor down and you had some very bad people involved. Mr. Giuliani is a highly respected man. He was the mayor of New York City, a great mayor, and I would like him to call you. I will ask him to call you along with the Attorney General. Rudy very much knows what's happening and he is a very capable guy. If you could speak to him that would be great. The former ambassador from the United States, the woman, was bad news and the people she was dealing with in the Ukraine were bad news so I just want to let you know that. The other thing, There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it... It sounds horrible to me.

So that I can stop playing stupid, can you explain that stream of consciousness for me? Maybe what is hidden by the instances of "..." would help make sense of it, but it looks to me like the President has his personal lawyer out there trying to dig up dirt on his political opponent, and he's asking a foreign leader to help him. And it looks like he's enlisting the US Government to help. He also seems to be wondering about Crowdstrike, which detected the DNC hack? WHY IS HE TALKING ABOUT THESE THINGS???? THESE ARE ILLEGAL THINGS HE'S ASKING FOR, AND THEN THEY HID THE RECORD OF THE CALL.

No, he didn't explicitly say these things are tied to aid money in this call. But really, who's playing stupid now? It was an undercurrent known to both sides during the call, and he has given shifting explanations for why he withheld the aid.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:24 pm

woodchip wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:19 am And I guess you have no problem with Biden telling a foreign president to fire the prosecutor investigating his son or else he will hold up aid money.

No matter how many times you and Trump repeat this bull★■◆●, its still bull★■◆●. Debunked to hell, come back when you have a real argument.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:21 pm

...did he seriously just drop a ★■◆●ing Holocaust simile? Christ.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:09 pm

woodchip wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:17 am Tell me TC, do you know anything about The law? Do you know the difference between hearsay and direct testimony? The CIA whistle blower "heard" from others is hearsay and not admissible. This is like the latest Kavenaugh accusation from a guy claiming he commited a sex act to a woman who can't remember the incident nor can her friends. In short the pathetic attempt by Dems and their newsy friends to slander people with specious and uncorroborated fantasies is like reading about bat boy in some tabloid. I suggest, TC you read the actual transcript in stead of being led like a jew to the ovens.

I did read the transcript. Trump outright asks the President of Ukraine if he could do him a political favor, right after he froze that military assistance to Ukraine. Timing or coincidence? You tell me.

https://www.mediaite.com/trump/trump-de ... -up-money/

A chunk of that discussion between Trump and the Ukrainian president was about Zelensky hoping that Trump would give his country that requested U.S. military assistance, especially those nice anti-tank missiles to help keep Putin and his desires on Ukraine at bay. See, we're back to Trump helping Putin again. Good grief. It just so happens, Trump froze that military assistance just days before the telephone call to Zelensky. Yes, you could grant Trump that his reason was to get more money from the E.U. and for Zelensky to do better at fighting Ukrainian corruption, but then there's that little "request" for some info on Crowdstrike and Biden's son. Crowdstrike has been debunked, so quit promulgating that one. Giuliani's out smearing that one around today like peanut butter, hoping it will stick. Whether or not Hunter Biden got himself mixed up with a corrupt Ukrainian Oligarch is certainly fodder for a separate post. The issue HERE and for the impeachment proceedings is that Trump himself violated the law and his oath of office by asking a foreign leader for a favor to look for dirt on a political candidate in our next election with the unsaid threat that that military assistance hinged on that leader's help. It was pretty much a mobster's quid pro quo, wink, wink. To make matters worse for Trump, he himself was the one who released the not full transcript of that phone call in the first place. If he'd kept it locked up, along with a couple of other probably very loaded transcripts concerning Russia and election interference, it would've been him against the whistleblower and he could continue his usual Trump stonewalling and crass name calling to his heart's content. However, he WAS smart enough to not release the FULL transcript either, so we're all left wonder what was systematically left out with the cherry picked transcript we did get.

Zelensky: Yes you are absolutely right. Not only 100%, but actually 1000% and I can tell you the following; I did talk to Angela Merkel and I did meet with her I also met and talked with Macron and I told them that they are not doing quite as much as they need to be doing on the issues with the sanctions. They are not enforcing the sanctions. They are not working as much as they should work for Ukraine. It turns out that even though logically, the European Union should be our biggest partner but technically the United States is a much bigger partner than the European Union and I'm very grateful to you for that because the United States is doing quite a lot for Ukraine. Much more than the European Union especially when we are talking about sanctions against the Russian Federation. I would also like to thank you for your great support in the area of defense. We are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps specifically we are almost ready to buy more Javelins from the United States for defense purposes.

Trump: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike ... I guess you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation. I think you're surrounding yourself with some of the same people. I would like to have the Attorney General call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it. As you said yesterday, that whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with Ukraine. Whatever you can do, it's very important that you do it if that's possible.

Now you indicate that this was all trash secondhand information. Well, the ICIG and the head of the DNI thought otherwise, that it was a credible complaint and that it needed looking into. I remind you woody, these people are doing their jobs.

https://www.justice.gov/olc/file/1204586/download

“Urgent Concern” Determination by the IG of the Intelligence Community3 On August 12, 2019, the Office of the ICIG received a complaint purporting to invoke this provision. The complainant alleged that he or she had heard reports from “White House officials” that, in the course of a routine diplomatic communication between the President and a foreign leader, the President had made statements that the complainant viewed as seeking to pressure that leader to take an official action to help the President’s 2020 re-election campaign. The complainant described this communication as arising during a scheduled call with the foreign leader that, consistent with usual practice, was monitored by a number of U.S. officials. Having heard about the President’s reported statements, the complainant expressed an intent to report this information to the intelligence committees.When the ICIG receives a complaint about an “urgent concern,” the statute provides that the ICIG then has 14 days to “determine whether the complaint or information appears credible.” 50 U.S.C. § 3033(k)(5)(B). The ICIG determined that the complaint here involved an “urgent concern” under section 3033(k)(5) and that it appeared credible. As relevant here, the statutory definition of an “urgent concern” includes “[a] serious or flagrant problem, abuse, [or] violation of law . . . relating to the funding, administration, or operation of an intelligence activity within the responsibility and authority of the Director of National Intelligence involving classified information.” Id.§ 3033(k)(5)(G)(i). According to the ICIG, the President’s actions could involve a “serious or flagrant problem,” “abuse,” or violation of law, and the ICIG observed that federal law prohibits any person from soliciting or accepting a campaign contribution or donation from a foreign national. See, e.g., 52 U.S.C. § 30121(a).2 The ICIG further noted that alleged misconduct by a senior U.S. official to seek foreign assistance to interfere in or influence a federal election could potentially expose the official to serious national security and counter-intelligence risks. Although the ICIG’s preliminary review found “some indication of an arguable political bias on the part of the Complainant in favor of a rival political candidate,” the ICIG concluded that the com-plaint’s allegations nonetheless appeared credible.2 The ICIG determined that the allegation “appears credible” without conducting any detailed legal analysis concerning whether the allegation, if true, would amount to an unlawful solicitation of a campaign contribution. We likewise do not express a view on the matter in this opinion.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:15 am

Krom wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 3:06 pm
woodchip wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2019 2:33 pm You still haven't said just what crime Trump should be jailed for.
Felony Obstruction of Justice.

You wanted to lock up and continue to call Hillary Clinton a criminal for a whole lot less.

Sorry, but FOJ can be nothing more than answering a question to the FBI, then asked the same question 6 months later in a slightly different manner. At that point you lied to the FBI. Just ask Scooter Libbey .

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:23 am

TC, it is now being reported as a CIA management type who got passed over for being as head of the CIA. Sour grapes? Yet Biden gets a free pass.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:13 am

woodchip wrote:Sorry, but FOJ can be nothing more than answering a question to the FBI, then asked the same question 6 months later in a slightly different manner.

Yeah, that does seem like weak tea compared to things Trump does to obstruct. Trying to get Lewandowski to give the Attorney General the message: Fire Mueller or your fired seems to be a bit more substantial. Firing the FBI director who wouldn't "let Flynn go" also seems a bit more serious.

TC, it is now being reported as a CIA management type who got passed over for being as head of the CIA. Sour grapes? Yet Biden gets a free pass.

It's weird that everyone who reports on Trump's shady dealings always seem to be the dishonest ones with an axe to grind. Even after Trump is caught lying and forced to admit some wrong doing or other, he is still pure and honest and ethical. You guys really are a cult.

vision · Post by **vision** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:12 pm

Vander wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:13 amYou guys really are a cult.

Totally. It's flipping scary to be honest. Doesn't matter if this CIA guy has an axe to grind, he reported illegal activity. He's a patriot. And, Trump has threatened him, which is also illegal.

Throw it on the pile with the rest of the crime over the last couple years. Never ends with this guy...

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:10 pm

woodchip wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:23 am TC, it is now being reported as a CIA management type who got passed over for being as head of the CIA. Sour grapes? Yet Biden gets a free pass.

I doesn't matter. I'm sure there are a lot of people with an axe to grind when it comes to a man who demands loyalty, but uses people up like old rags and tosses them out in the trash when he no longer needs them. In fact, Trump takes everything so personal, he burns the trash just to add insult to injury. Trump has probably burned through more associates and staff than any other president in history. Why? Because he's a self-centered insecure egomaniac who only does things for himself and is paranoid of anything and everyone else because of it. Remember, it was Trump himself ordered the release of his own phone transcript for all to see. He's damned himself by his own admission. He GAVE us the evidence to hang him. Plus, it now looks like he's trying to cover up as much as possible by sticking a lot of his phone and actual conversations with foreign leaders on a server that's only meant for high level classification. Shades of the Nixon's tapes? It's always the coverup that gets them in the end.

As to Biden, I don't want to see him as president, nor do I want to see him getting away with "it", as you said. He's just another corporate old guard shill and we need good positive changes in Washington if we want to break the corporatocracy that's been so entrenched for years. We don't need to elect more of the same old guard candidates if we want change. I agree something smells with his son's business dealings in Ukraine and even though Hunter Biden denies getting his father involved or doing anything untoward, you know old political families are close knit and tend to discuss things among themselves. Plus, Hunter being a Washington lobbyist and getting discharged from the Navy Reserve for cocaine use sours me as well. Another rich boy getting coddled by a rich, powerful daddy. How typical. Unfortunately, all that happened back in 2014 and before, so it's probably too late to do anything about it. Of course, if he's elected, he's fair game for congressional oversight. That is, if the Republicans don't screw themselves out of the Senate by defending to the bitter end the current crooked president like a bunch of mindless lackeys who never question anything, no matter how rotten. Remember, it pissed me off that Al Gore and the rest of the Dems stood beside slimeball Clinton like good soldiers after Clinton was impeached. The result was that I didn't vote for the Democrat in the next election, and so did a lot of other Americans.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/worl ... -ties.html

And the Crowdstrike conspiracy has long since been debunked. Trump's former Homeland Security Chief even stated that. Trump is madly grasping at straws kindly provided by a bumbling Rudi Guilliani and other far right conspiracy theorists hoping that somehow, someway, the Russia election meddling in 2016 was really all Ukraine's fault instead. I guess in Trump's mind, that makes it better, despite the fact flying in his face that Mueller indicted a bunch of Russians for election interference during his investigation. I heard a comment that the quickest way for Trump to get impeached is to hire Rudi Guilliani. Well, time will tell if this doofus hurts or helps Trump.

However, the President of the U.S. cannot ask a foreign leader to look for dirt on his political opponent, which is what Trump did, no matter how you parse it or blame the messenger. Trump violated the law for personal gain and then handed everyone the evidence on a golden platter. Thank God for stupidity.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:59 pm

The guy drew on a hurricane forecast map with a sharpie and presented it with a straight face as proof that he was really right when he tweeted about an outdated and inoperative forecast.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:12 pm

Yep, anyone voting Republican anymore can't say its for anything the GOP stands for, because the GOP doesn't stand for anything. They are completely brainwashed cultists who will believe anything as long as it has an (R) next to its name.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:12 pm

Oopsie. It turns out that Pompeo was also listening in on that little Ukraine phone call. Trump also has his Justice Department lackey, William Barr, going around the world trying to find the origins of the Russia Investigation, at least origins that don't implicate Trump or Russia.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:04 pm

USA Today wrote:WASHINGTON – A new poll shows that only four in 10 Republicans believe President Donald Trump talked to the Ukrainian president about investigating political rival Joe Biden, even though Trump has acknowledged doing so.

Vander wrote:Even after Trump is caught lying and forced to admit some wrong doing or other, he is still pure and honest and ethical.

vision · Post by **vision** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:17 pm

Vander wrote:Even after Trump is caught lying and forced to admit some wrong doing or other, he is still pure and honest and ethical.

It's a sickness, and the infected are here too.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:34 pm

So THIS is how Trump/Giuliani is trying to pin a load of BS on Hunter Biden AND Mueller as well. Wow. What a desperate convoluted scheme. The Trump Spin Machine, with Giuliani at the helm, is working full time trying to reverse spin this one in their favor, and against Biden and Mueller of course. This Ukrainian corruption mess is so convoluted that most people aren't going to understand the facts, so I'm guessing the usual Trump right wingers will lap up the propaganda like cream just because it's easier to swallow. Idiots. It's really a load of sour milk.

https://theintercept.com/2019/09/25/i-w ... side-down/

https://heavy.com/news/2019/09/viktor-s ... vit-biden/

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:43 am

To be fair, that Hunter Biden 50k/mo job is shady. While you might not be able to show any outright quid pro quo corruption, it's still 'trade on your family name' corruption that shouldn't be acceptable. Of course, relative to corruption in Ukraine, it's probably the least unethical, and certainly not comparable to Manafort/Oligarch level corruption.

vision · Post by **vision** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:41 am

Vander wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:43 amTo be fair, that Hunter Biden 50k/mo job is shady.

Agreed. I have no love for J Biden and his kin. Put them all in jail for all I care. But let's focus on the topic at hand, which is the POTUS breaking the law.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:56 pm

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/02/politics ... index.html

Even CNN can't make this ★■◆● up.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:38 pm

Yep. Sad to say that Trumpards everywhere are as deluded as hell and it's damn scary to have that many stupid minions willing to ignore the facts and follow an idiot egomaniac over a cliff. My husband's aunt, an educated school administrator, remained a die hard Nixon supporter even after those damning audio tapes came out and sealed his fate. What's worse is all the people who work for Trump are circling the wagons in defense and are willing to violate the law just to kiss his golden ass, despite ALL the crap that's gone on with Trump and Russia ever since this bastard was elected. Trump's even yelling right now that this whole thing is a coup orchestrated by the Dems (even though he himself released the damning evidence of his own illegal wrongdoing in the first place) and a slam against the vote of the people. But he's forgetting he didn't WIN the popular vote in 2016.

You know who will have the most lasting damage done to them other than our country and the press? The Republicans. I used to vote Republican occasionally, because sometimes a little fiscal conservatism is needed to counter the free spending liberals, but never again. I'd even vote Socialist just to piss off these idiot conservatives now. Never has a party twisted itself into such a rotting pretzel that they've abandoned every political tenet they ever held. They no longer have any standing to be taken seriously, ever. They only exist now to worship their Lord Trump. They're so blind they can't even see how stupid and inept the man is too. They are now officially the party of wackos who wouldn't know the truth if it smacked them in the face and left a mark.

vision · Post by **vision** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:07 pm

Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:38 pmI used to vote Republican occasionally, because sometimes a little fiscal conservatism is needed to counter the free spending liberals, but never again. I'd even vote Socialist just to piss off these idiot conservatives now.

I hear ya. I'm now embarrassed to tell people I was a registered republican up until a couple years ago. Last election was the first time I voted against the GOP on principal. Never again will they get a single vote of mine.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:20 pm

The republicans haven't been fiscally conservative at any point in the last 30 years. Literally every time the republicans have been at the helm in that time frame the national debt has sharply increased.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:37 pm

But, but, that was their golden ★■◆● point when Obama was president, other than screaming about Obama's birth certificate. I guess that was the first big indication that the stupid virus was starting to really take hold of the Republican Party's pea brain.

Oh, and there's yet another whistleblower who's just come forth. Apparently, the hand picked Trump sycophants in the IRS have been helping Trump with his little tax audit problem and not for the taxpayer's benefit either. The swamp is now Trump's moat. Think of that when you pay your taxes in a couple of months, how you have to pay while megabucks Trump can use his people to fix his tax troubles.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:55 pm

Anyone who voted in the negative on that poll should be legally barred from voting. Immediately.

vision · Post by **vision** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:31 pm

Top Gun wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:55 pm Anyone who voted in the negative on that poll should be legally barred from voting. Immediately.

How about we require them to take a civics class instead? I find that basically every Trump supporter I know has no real understanding of how our government works or why we have a democracy (and why it's valuable).

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:42 pm

Honestly I would be 100% down with a basic civics test being a requirement for voting, provided the requisite material was freely distributed and widely available. It scares the ★■◆● out of to think that millions of people who have no goddamn clue how their own government functions can pull that lever and have a critical say in determining its future.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:38 pm

I don't think anyone could ever make this stuff up it's so outlandish. Holee Crap.

https://www.politicususa.com/2019/09/25 ... ached.html

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09/ ... hment.html

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:33 pm

Trump was working on his little shake down of Ukraine scheme BEFORE that infamous phone call. Thank you Volker for having a conscience.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... ule=inline

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:51 am

“Tunnelcat” wrote:Thank you Volker for having a conscience.

As Trump's special representative for Ukraine negotiations, Volker supported a shift in policy to send lethal weapons to Kyiv, including tank-busting Javelins missiles, described by their manufacturer as "the world's most versatile and lethal one-man-portable, anti-tank, guided munition and surveillance weapon system."

But at the same time Volker was pushing Trump to arm Ukraine, he also held positions with a major lobbying firm, BGR Group, and a think tank, the McCain Institute, that each had financial ties to Raytheon Co., which manufactures the Javelin system and earned millions from Trump's decision.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/ ... er-1517874

We all have our differences, but corruption really brings us together as a civilization.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:21 am

Well, I guess I conflated "conscience" with "ass covering". It goes to show you, when the ship starts sinking, all the rats abandon ship.

So we have a conundrum. It looks like Pence is also involved, if not more involved, in this whole Ukraine corruption scandal and he could rightly be impeached for the same crimes as Trump. Would the Dems in the House even try to impeach both of them? It's a snowball's chance in hell that the Senate would even vote to remove just Trump from office, let alone BOTH of them, because Nancy Pelosi is third in line.

I wonder, as this sordid mess drags on and on with more dirt being exposed every day, will Republicans or their media outlets eventually get their spine and abandon their Trump experiment? When Republicans last resolutely stood behind "their man Nixon", it took the Supreme Court forcing the exposure of his "smoking gun tape" to finally get enough Republicans to break with Nixon. But that was before Fox News and the net and the huge "fake news" machine that Trump has promulgated. What will it take this time? He's been so blatant and clumsy with his scandals and involved so many people who are now blabbing everything they can just to save their skins that you'd think that at lot more Republicans would've broken away from this president by now. I mean, the Republicans aren't even behaving like rats. It seems that they're willing to go down with the ship.

This link was written back in 2017, but by now we have even more "stuff" that's transpired with Trump.

https://www.mic.com/articles/177430/rep ... with-trump

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:50 pm

Tunnelcat wrote:When Republicans last resolutely stood behind "their man Nixon", it took the Supreme Court forcing the exposure of his "smoking gun tape" to finally get enough Republicans to break with Nixon. But that was before Fox News and the net and the huge "fake news" machine that Trump has promulgated.

The Fox News' origin story begins with Roger Ailes lamenting the fact that Republicans didn't have a propaganda outfit during Watergate. Republicans like Ailes never disavowed the crimes of Nixon, instead they worked to build an infrastructure that would facilitate them in the future. Right or wrong are of no consequence to these people, only winning or losing.

Tunnelcat wrote:It's a snowball's chance in hell that the Senate would even vote to remove just Trump from office, let alone BOTH of them, because Nancy Pelosi is third in line.

Pence being wrapped up in this makes it all the more interesting. Back in 2017 I wondered how well Pence was firewalled from Trump shenanigans, and thought there should probably people around him whose sole job was to keep him clean for when Trump inevitably went down. Getting Pence dirty, if he wasn't already, is probably seen as a defensive move by Trump. It helps him by removing the most uncomplicated alternative.

We're obviously not going to see a scenario where the line of succession reaches Pelosi. In the unlikely event that the Republican Senate actually turns on Trump and he's impeached and convicted, Pence takes over and names a new VP. (Nikki Haley?) If Pence is also implicated and it looks like Republicans are cutting bait on the Trump era, he probably resigns first ala Agnew.

What I would really hate to see is Trump somehow getting out of all this with a pardon at the end. There needs to be accountability if warranted.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:28 pm

Conservatives and by extension Republicans have been at war with the mainstream press for decades and this is just the results of that war. You see it right here; everything and every organization woodchip disagrees with is "fake news", "a liberal conspiracy", "a rag" or some other derogatory description. Anything that doesn't conform to the narrative must be false, no exceptions. The truth, law and order, common decency, and reality are now all irrelevant and powerless before the monster that is the disinformation guzzling irrational conservative voters with a massive persecution complex who make up the trump base. People who observe real news outside the conservative misinformation sphere of influence will basically never vote for conservatives which means Republicans are absolutely dependent on the trump base in order to win elections and cannot do anything that would upset them. But Republicans are also terrified of primary challengers because they know the conservative base is a bunch of anti-informed irrational deranged lunatics who only get off on attacking and will turn on anyone for any reason and will always leap on to the bandwagon of the next shiny thing as long as it gives them something "other" to attack which makes them feel good and morally superior. They have made experience, skill, knowledge, rationality, and connections irrelevant to getting elected which means its also irrelevant to getting re-elected. They are at the mercy of an unhinged directionless blind and furious mob bent on destruction that only knows how to attack its perceived enemies. It is a monster they created that they have very little real control over and one slip up could turn it against them with no hope for recovery.

Republicans being quiet about all of these blatant impeachable offenses is because they have weighed the facts and came to the conclusion that holding on to power is more important to them than holding on to their souls.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:10 pm

Krom wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:28 pmRepublicans being quiet about all of these blatant impeachable offenses is because they have weighed the facts and came to the conclusion that holding on to power is more important to them than holding on to their souls.

And eventually, they'll lose both the way they're headed. Then they'll have to ask, was the marriage to Trump worth it?

Meanwhile......

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/04/us/p ... e=Homepage

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:37 am

I've also heard this argument of "lets let the election sort it out" coming from republicans, and I have to question the logic: We are talking about the same election that trump has openly gone on to national television and solicited multiple foreign powers to tamper with and manipulate in his favor.

Remember back in the 90s when Saddam Hussan was re-elected in Iraq with like 99% of the "vote" (and the competing candidates were quietly executed for treason)? Or how even now Kim Jong Un is also virtually unanimously "elected" to his position of Supreme Leader of the "Peoples Democratic Republic of North Korea" (and citizens that vote against him are quietly executed). These are the same types of elections that trump is trying to get to happen here.

Let the election decide indeed.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:37 am

Krom wrote:I've also heard this argument of "lets let the election sort it out" coming from republicans, and I have to question the logic: We are talking about the same election that trump has openly gone on to national television and solicited multiple foreign powers to tamper with and manipulate in his favor.

When the "it's a republic not a democracy" folks try to defer to democracy, get ready for some shameless bullsh!t. Like when McConnell blocked Garland because there was a future election. It really does require a chef's kiss here, though. Apparently Democrats have to allow Trump to criminally interfere with the election to preserve democracy.

vision · Post by **vision** » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:05 pm

BTW, I just wanted to say that somehow these last couple weeks feel... different. These traitorous Republicans usually have their messaging together whenever Trump does something stupid and/or illegal (basically every day). But it's seems like, and this is just a feeling, they are now completely on the defensive and scrambling. I saw someone post on another site that this is the first time Trump doesn't control the news cycle. It's like, the news cycle is controlling him, and the hypnosis has been broken for a lot of people. I mean, the POTUS literally admitted doing something illegal on national TV, then doubled down and did it again. There is no way to spin it. I mean, you have to be phenomenally stupid (or evil) to think he shouldn't be impeached.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:39 pm

I think a few things are contributing to that, perhaps most importantly the whistle blower has remained anonymous which causes all sorts of problems to trump. His usual defense of throwing personal attacks against his enemy doesn't work when nobody knows who or what to attack. Then given the nature of the information presented by the whistle blower it must be someone who is connected to the point of being essentially inside the administration which already had massive trust issues to begin with. The white house barely holds together as an organization during good times and right now anyone and everyone they may try to work with to build a defense or cover up their own asses could be this unknown whistle blower which I can imagine is paralyzing when just about everyone has found themselves involved in potentially incriminating ways. And then there is trump himself who has dug in so deep that all of his attacks are just rolling back down the pit onto his own face.