M$ Sidewinder 3D Pro on USB - 2?

Daffy · Post by **Daffy** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:50 pm

Heya KoolBear! Put me down for two complete units!

I miss my Sidewinder...

KoolBear · Post by **KoolBear** » Wed May 16, 2007 7:05 pm

Daffy wrote:Heya KoolBear! Put me down for two complete units!

I miss my Sidewinder...

Logged

I know the feeling

KoolBear · Post by **KoolBear** » Fri May 18, 2007 7:29 pm

I will get pricing for the components this weekend based on the quantities listed.

I won't get bare board pricing back till next week.

I'll should have pricing on assembly too.

The only thing I am sure is overseas shipping.

KB

joeykork · Post by **joeykork** » Sat May 19, 2007 3:10 am

First time poster to descentBB...hi all.

Me want to buy one!!!

KoolBear · Post by **KoolBear** » Sat May 19, 2007 7:56 am

joeykork wrote:First time poster to descentBB...hi all.

Me want to buy one!!!

Welcone joey!

1 unit logged.

crazy328 · Post by **crazy328** » Sun May 20, 2007 5:32 pm

ok, i have 2 questions..

#1 is it too late to get one?

#2 is there any way that i can get it compatible for a Force feedback pro? or would i have to modify it myself?

KoolBear · Post by **KoolBear** » Sun May 20, 2007 6:10 pm

crazy328 wrote:ok, i have 2 questions..

#1 is it too late to get one?

#2 is there any way that i can get it compatible for a Force feedback pro? or would i have to modify it myself?

Hi Crazy328,

#1 No it is not too late.

#2 Grendel will need to answer this one., once he answers and if you are still interested I will add you to the list.

crazy328 · Post by **crazy328** » Sun May 20, 2007 7:11 pm

well, if i can get it modified for FF Pro, then i definatly want one =P.. or if the current version that is being mass produced, kinda, works for FF Pro, then i'll get it

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon May 21, 2007 12:23 am

Question would be: what's your background ? In theory it could be modified since the protocol is pretty close to the 3DP. I don't know if the FFP uses the same two trigger lines tho (X1 & Y2 on the 3DP). Also, you can't do force feedback since noone ever reverse engineered the FF commands.

crazy328 · Post by **crazy328** » Mon May 21, 2007 1:25 pm

well, what do you mean by background? do i have experience modifying, or soldering parts or stuff like that?.. i have not done that myself, my brother has soldered stuff, same with my dad.. but i just dont want to screw it up.. as for FF.. it doesnt really matter a whole lot.. since it has a power adapter, i can still feel some force even with it only being plugged in.. and that those two trigger lines, where could i find out about that? so that this would be possible?

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon May 21, 2007 1:51 pm

Some hardware and some software (C & assembler) skills are necessary to do the changes. Mainly the latter.

crazy328 · Post by **crazy328** » Mon May 21, 2007 9:12 pm

so i take it i'd have to do the modifications with some guidance from you?.. i know my dad knows some c programming.. and like i've said, he's soldered before.. so is that the case?

i'm mainly just concerned about ruining something.. lol, would rather it done right by someone else than done what i think might be right by me =P

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon May 21, 2007 11:51 pm

crazy328 wrote:so i take it i'd have to do the modifications with some guidance from you?.. i know my dad knows some c programming.. and like i've said, he's soldered before.. so is that the case?

That's probably not enough -- take a look at the project, you can find it here -- the archive is behind the "Project archive 2007-01-19" link near the bottom of that page.

The only way I see how this could work would be me modifying the software and you testing it and maybe building a little DB15-DA15 adapter. I'm not sure I want to do it, I'll take a look at the FFP protocol. tho. If it's simple I could give it a try.

crazy328 · Post by **crazy328** » Tue May 22, 2007 12:09 am

well, i've been looking for some time.. i've come across several things i could try.. i needa get a sound card for some.. looks like someone might have made a driver to make a gameport work with vista x64.. if modifying your design, and all the other stuff cant be done too easily.. then i suppose i can try that driver.. if that doesnt work, i'll just have to revert to vista x86.. or win XP..

i appreciate all your help.. if you are able to do it.. i'd be willing to pay a little extra for all your trouble.. thanks again

fndtn · Post by **fndtn** » Thu May 24, 2007 11:33 pm

Since I own 3 of the MS Sidewinder series (stick, wheels, and the motion sensing pad thing), I'd be happy even if they just basically work again.

2 units, fully-built, boxed or not (if not available).

I have rec'd a number of sound overseas shipments via FedEx and DHL, which seem pretty electronics-compatible.

Los Angeles, CA - USA

Paypal's good for me.

KoolBear · Post by **KoolBear** » Fri May 25, 2007 12:57 am

fndtn wrote:...
2 units, fully-built... me.

Added, welcome to the party!

crazy328 · Post by **crazy328** » Fri May 25, 2007 1:10 am

fndtn, just remember, this is for the 3D pro.. dunno myself if it will work with those 3 things.. might want to confirm it.. just a thought

Grendel - any progress thus-far? i honestly dont want to be too much a bother.. if you cant do it too easily then dont feel obligated.. i do appreciate you looking into it for me though.. thanks again!

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Fri May 25, 2007 1:31 am

I did a quick peek, nothing too deep so far. Problem is that I have to reverse engineer the FFP's data structure from the linux SW driver source (it's the only reference for the SW protocol there is..) Not easy and I haven't had the time to dig into that yet. Maybe over the weekend.

KoolBear · Post by **KoolBear** » Fri May 25, 2007 5:02 pm

1st pass draft compilation of expendetures related to this effort.

This spreadsheet is based off assumptions. I should have detailed pricing for the board early next week.

At the top of the pdf are two PRELIMINARY/BUGETARY prices one is for a completed unit the other for blank pcb.

AS I get formal quotes in I will update this sheet.

I have it saved in a pdf file CLICK HERE

KB

crazy328 · Post by **crazy328** » Fri May 25, 2007 6:26 pm

the reverse engineering is for if i wanted Force feedback, correct? or is it so i can also have all the buttons available? if i can get all the buttons, and not worry about the force feedback, that would be fine

Bold Deceiver · Post by **Bold Deceiver** » Fri May 25, 2007 7:35 pm

KoolBear wrote:PRELIMINARY/BUDGETARY

Great, thanks KB. Extremely reasonable, albeit preliminary.

KoolBear · Post by **KoolBear** » Fri May 25, 2007 8:39 pm

I just saw an error the first set of boards (60) was $440 not $400 I have in the spread sheet

Man I think I have an error on my spread sheet. please dis-regard my previous post. I got a detailed quote from Digikey.com for the electronic components. And it was considerably lower than my spreadsheet. Guess I need to see where my error is

I did notice that nearly all componets were cheaper.

There was a problem with the main chip either it wasn't available or it was obsolete. I will check with mouser.com.

KB

flip · Post by **flip** » Sun May 27, 2007 7:33 am

KoolBear wrote: There was a problem with the main chip either it wasn't available or it was obsolete. I will check with mouser.com.

KB

New part number at Digikey is Atmega8-16PU-ND. They made the chip ROHS compliant and obsoleted other part number.

KoolBear · Post by **KoolBear** » Sun May 27, 2007 9:48 am

Thanks flip! I'll post a qote from digikey later today.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon May 28, 2007 12:21 am

Something wrong w/ the quote. The price in the BOM is for the quantities specified already. The number in () in the BOM are minimum order quantities (sorry for not pointing that out more clearly..) Eg. the LEDs are $2.78 for 10, ie. it would be 50 for $13.09. Same goes for C6-9, R5-7, R3-4, R2 & R1. Also take out the 28-pin sockets, don't need them in a production board (spendy). Components should be below $15 that way

I'll run it through DigiKey and append the exact price.

Code: Select all

Quantity|Part Number|Description|Unit Price USD|Extended Price USD

47  ATMEGA8-16PU-ND IC AVR MCU 8K 16MHZ 5V 28DIP     2.30000 $108.10 
47  LM556CNFS-ND    IC TIMER DUAL MONO 14-DIP        0.36000 $16.92 
47  X227-ND         CRYSTAL 12.000MHZ 20PF HC-49/US  0.51800 $24.35 
94  1N5226BDICT-ND  DIODE ZENER 3.3V 500MW 5% DO-35  0.21000 $19.74 
50  200QBK-ND       RES 200 OHM 1/4W 5% CARBON FILM  0.05400 $2.70 
50  4.7KQBK-ND      RES 4.7K OHM 1/4W 5% CARBON FILM 0.05400 $2.70 
95  82QBK-ND        RES 82 OHM 1/4W 5% CARBON FILM   0.05400 $5.13 
145 2.2KQBK-ND      RES 2.2K OHM 1/4W 5% CARBON FILM 0.05400 $7.83 
47  P5177-ND        CAP 4.7UF 50V ALUM LYTIC RADIAL  0.07700 $3.62 
94  399-4332-ND     CAP 15PF 200V 5% CER RADIAL      0.21200 $19.93 
190 BC1095CT-ND     CAP .010UF 50V CERAMIC X7R 10%   0.05010 $9.52 
94  399-4329-ND     CAP .1UF 50V 10% CER RADIAL      0.15700 $14.76 
47  ED90064-ND      CONN RECEPT USB TYPE B PCB       1.13000 $53.11 
47  182-15FE-ND     CONN DB15 FEMAL .318\" R/A NICKEL 1.46200 $68.71 
50  67-1647-ND      LED 3MM SHORT LENS SUPER RED CLR 0.27800 $13.90 

Subtotal $371.02

Notes: do not use the 16PI Atmega8, it's the industrial version and is not in stock. Found a cheaper LM556. Both chips have price breaks at 10 units. Total cost per board: $7.90

Aus-RED-5 · Post by **Aus-RED-5** » Mon May 28, 2007 3:39 am

Cool Grendel.

So when and how do we start with the payment option/s?

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Wed May 30, 2007 1:29 am

KB, another quick note regarding the DigiKey quote above -- the components are not selected for automatic loading, they probably have to be loaded manually. If the solder guy needs reels or whatnot you'll have to work w/ him to find the right stuff.

P.S. Haven't had the time to check the FFP out yet. Looks like it's almost the same as the PP tho. I got one of those so I could run some tests. Wonder if the native dongle of the PP would work on the FFP.. And yes, it would be without any FF functionality. Limp stick.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Wed May 30, 2007 9:52 pm

Qick question for crazy328 -- does the connector of the FFP look like the top one in the picture below ? (top one is a PP, bottom one a 3DP connector)

crazy328 · Post by **crazy328** » Thu May 31, 2007 12:13 am

yup, looks just like that top picture.. if you can get FF to work easily, go ahead, but if not, dont worry about it

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:45 pm

Put the project on the backburner, turns out that the data stream from newer model PP is very different from the older one. I'll look around if I can find a PP or FFP for cheap and try again. The good news is that the hardware mod to support the PP or FFP is very simple -- a short wire betw. pins 11 & 13 on the DA15 connector is all that's needed. Even backwards compatible to the 3PD

crazy328 · Post by **crazy328** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:18 pm

very nice.. just keep me posted grendel

claancy · Post by **claancy** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:15 pm

Hi,

If it's not too late, I'd like to get two of these. I haven't been able to find a 'stick that I like as much as my old Sidewinders, and then I stumbled into this forum...

KoolBear · Post by **KoolBear** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:33 pm

Ok top prices are for running the boards AS IS, this means NOT setup for wave soldering. The bottom set of figures covers recreating the boards i.e. panelization.

I can not, nor will I be willing to solder boards....

SO it's up to you if you want to pay more for a completed unit or if I just purchase blank boards and leave each of you with that. (about 8 bucks per board more!)

Mike,

Individual route prices.

60 brds-2wks-$400.00 Lot
60 brds-wk-$500.00 Lot

Breakaway panel pricing below

3 panels=$140.00/panel
Re-Tooling $120.00=Total-$540.00
21 up (3 x 7)- 10 x 14 finish Panel Size

Credit Card or check payment in advance.

Thanks,
Debra
Gemini Circuits

I'm positive this price doesn't reflect the 8.25% sales tax.

So ... I need to know what everyone wants to do.

claancy I added your's to the mix.

crazy328 · Post by **crazy328** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:54 pm

so what's the official price for the boards, completed? or will I not worry about that price too much since Grendel is looking into the FFP for me?

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:35 pm

Good news -- I do have the code modified so the converter can talk to the Precision Pro or 3D Pro Plus (older version of the PP). Since the FFP has supposedly the same data format, it's very likely that the converter will work w/ the FFP as well

The code needs some more work -- right now there are two different version of the firmware to talk to a 3DP or the PP series. I would like to have them merged in a way that the converter detects if a 3DP or PP type stick is connected and selects the appropriate set of USB descriptors. It's not that trivial tho, it'll take a bit until I'm there. Also, somehow I need to verify that the FFP will work of course..

crazy328 · Post by **crazy328** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:22 pm

that's great news grendel!! if you need me to do anything.. or want extra compensation for all your hard work, i'm willing.. just wanna be able to use my ffp =P

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:38 am

Nah, as long it's entertaining for me I'm fine

Currently the firmware actually detects what stick is connected (3DP or PP) and uses different USB descriptors & processing code. Ie. a 3DP shows up as \"Microsoft SideWinder 3D Pro (USB)\" and the PP as \"Microsoft SideWinder Precision Pro (USB)\". I do have the set for the \"Microsoft SideWinder Force Feedback Pro (USB)\" in place, but I need a FFP for testing. Working on it..

Grax · Post by **Grax** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:45 pm

put me down for a complete, m8

WillyP · Post by **WillyP** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:37 pm

If this works for the Prescision, put me down for a second unit. If you need a PP for testing, I can mail you one.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:43 pm

I got two PP's, thanks -- works w/ them (old & new version). I need a FFP -- just missed the end of the auction I put my eye on. Work sux, too distracting

Edit: Here is a picture of the \"hardware modification\" that needs to be done for use w/ the PP (or FFP). A 3DP will still work w/ the mod.

M$ Sidewinder 3D Pro on USB - 2?

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M$ Sidewinder 3D Pro on USB - 2 units, if you are still open

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