More on the climate

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More on the climate

Post by VonVulcan »

This was sent to me and I thought it noteworthy.

-------------------------------------------------------

Questions for Al Gore tcsdaily.com 25May06

Dear Mr. Gore:

I have just seen your new movie, \"An Inconvenient Truth,\" about the threat that global warming presents to humanity. I think you did a very good job of explaining global warming theory, and your presentation was effective. Please convey my compliments to your good friend, Laurie David, for a job well done.

As a climate scientist myself -- you might remember me...I'm the one you mistook for your \"good friend,\" UK scientist Phil Jones during my congressional testimony some years back -- I have a few questions that occurred to me while watching the movie.

1) Why did you make it look like hurricanes, tornadoes, wildfires, floods, droughts, and ice calving off of glaciers and falling into the ocean, are only recent phenomena associated with global warming? You surely know that hurricane experts have been warning congress for many years that the natural cycle in hurricanes would return some day, and that our built-up coastlines were ripe for a disaster (like Katrina, which you highlighted in the movie). And as long as snow continues to fall on glaciers, they will continue to flow downhill toward the sea. Yet you made it look like these things wouldn't happen if it weren't for global warming. Also, since there are virtually no measures of severe weather showing a recent increase, I assume those graphs you showed actually represented damage increases, which are well known to be simply due to greater population and wealth. Is that right?

2) Why did you make it sound like all scientists agree that climate change is manmade and not natural? You mentioned a recent literature review study that supposedly found no peer-reviewed articles that attributed climate change to natural causes (a non-repeatable study which has since been refuted....I have a number of such articles in my office!) You also mentioned how important it is to listen to scientists when they warn us, yet surely you know that almost all past scientific predictions of gloom and doom have been wrong. How can we trust scientists' predictions now?

3) I know you still must feel bad about the last presidential election being stolen from you, but why did you have to make fun of Republican presidents (Reagan; both Bushes) for their views on global warming? The points you made in the movie might have had wider appeal if you did not alienate so many moviegoers in this manner.

4) Your presentation showing the past 650,000 years of atmospheric temperature and carbon dioxide reconstructions from ice cores was very effective. But I assume you know that some scientists view the CO2 increases as the result of, rather than the cause of, past temperature increases. It seems unlikely that CO2 variations have been the dominant cause of climate change for hundreds of thousands of years. And now that there is a new source of carbon dioxide emissions (people), those old relationships are probably not valid anymore. Why did you give no hint of these alternative views?

5) When you recounted your 6-year-old son's tragic accident that nearly killed him, I thought that you were going to make the point that, if you had lived in a poor country like China or India, your son would have probably died. But then you later held up these countries as model examples for their low greenhouse gas emissions, without mentioning that the only reason their emissions were so low was because people in those countries are so poor. I'm confused...do you really want us to live like the poor people in India and China?

6) There seems to be a lot of recent concern that more polar bears are drowning these days because of disappearing sea ice. I assume you know that polar bears have always migrated to land in late summer when sea ice naturally melts back, and then return to the ice when it re-freezes. Also, if this was really happening, why did the movie have to use a computer generated animation of the poor polar bear swimming around looking for ice? Haven't there been any actual observations of this happening? Also, temperature measurements in the arctic suggest that it was just as warm there in the 1930's...before most greenhouse gas emissions. Don't you ever wonder whether sea ice concentrations back then were low, too?

7) Why did you make it sound like simply signing on to the Kyoto Protocol to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions would be such a big step forward, when we already know it will have no measurable effect on global temperatures anyway? And even though it represents such a small emission reduction, the economic pain Kyoto causes means that almost no developed country will be meeting its emission reductions commitments under that treaty, as we are now witnessing in Europe.

8) At the end of the movie, you made it sound like we can mostly fix the global warming problem by conserving energy... you even claimed we can reduce our carbon emissions to zero. But I'm sure you know that this will only be possible with major technological advancements, including a probable return to nuclear power as an energy source. Why did you not mention this need for technological advancement and nuclear power? It is because that would support the current (Republican) Administration's view?

Mr. Gore, I think we can both agree that if it was relatively easy for mankind to stop emitting so much carbon dioxide, that we should do so. You are a very smart person, so I can't understand why you left so many important points unmentioned, and you made it sound so easy.

I wish you well in these efforts, and I hope that humanity will make the right choices based upon all of the information we have on the subject of global warming. I agree with you that global warming is indeed a \"moral issue,\" and if we are to avoid doing more harm than good with misguided governmental policies, we will need more politicians to be educated on the issue.

Your \"Good Friend,\" Dr. Roy W. Spencer( aka 'Phil Jones')

Dr. Roy Spencer is a principal research scientist for the University of Alabama in Huntsville and the U.S. Science Team Leader for the Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer (AMSR-E) on NASA's Aqua satellite. In the past, he has served as Senior Scientist for Climate Studies at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama.

Dr. Spencer received his Ph.D. in Meteorology from the University of Wisconsin in 1981.

Areas of Expertise: Satellite data temperature, Hurricanes, Interfaith Stewardship Alliance, Evangelical Movement and Global warming, General climate change issues
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Post by Jeff250 »

Areas of Expertise: Satellite data temperature, Hurricanes, Interfaith Stewardship Alliance, Evangelical Movement and Global warming, General climate change issues
What is \"Interfaith Stewardship Alliance\" and \"Evangelical Movement and Global Warming\" and what does it have to do with expertise anyways?

Here's another blog of his:
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=071604D

Some quotes of interest:

\"A number of Christian churches have become very active in the environmental movement, pushing the envelope of stewardship over the creation to what some would consider to be Earth-worship.\"

\"If you believe in evolution, why not view all human acts are the inevitable domination of our species over some less evolved ones?\"

\"It would be worthwhile for everyone to think seriously about what they believe mankinds role on Earth is, and how much influence over nature humans should assert. Since this is ultimately and inevitably a religious question, I fear that science will be misused in the effort to disguise it as a scientific one.\"

I don't think that this guy is in any position to question anyone else's motives concerning the global warming issue. :roll:
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Post by VonVulcan »

Excellent hatchet job, I did read the blog you linked and got an entirly different flavor from those quotes when taken in context...
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Post by Genghis »

I read the blog, too, and context does nothing to alter the intent or meaning of Jeff's excerpts. This guy sounds like James Watt. I would say that by chiming in, he is doing Al Gore's cause a favor.
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Post by VonVulcan »

So are you saying that the questions he raised about Mr. Gores movie are without merrit?

Just because you don't like where he is comming from?
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Post by Jeff250 »

I'm not saying that his position is wrong because of his bias with this issue. However, not being a meteorologist myself, the true facts of the matter aren't actually accessible to me, nor do I believe that they are to you.

His bias with this issue does, though, explain how he might come to a different conclusion than scientists without a religious bias. It'd be like if I said that global warming was caused by the shrinking numbers of pirates. The source of my information doesn't necessarily invalidate the information as being true, but it would help explain why my theory would be at odds with real scientists, whose methodology most people trust to yield a legitimate theory.
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Re: More on the climate

Post by VonVulcan »

VonVulcan wrote:
Dr. Spencer received his Ph.D. in Meteorology from the University of Wisconsin in 1981.

Areas of Expertise: Satellite data temperature, Hurricanes, Interfaith Stewardship Alliance, Evangelical Movement and Global warming, General climate change issues
Setting aside the references to religion, which you interpit to show bias, I would think these credentials would qualify him as a "real" scientist. No?
And what about Mr. Gores bias? Or rather, agenda. No mention of that? Seems theres plenty of bias to go around here, not excluding mine. :)
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Post by Jeff250 »

You're no doubt right about Al Gore's movie showing bias as well. I haven't seen it, and I probably won't as long as I have to pay money to. But I really don't care about the movie as much as the issue concerning global warming itself. Al Gore could make a movie warning of the inconvenient truth of Manbearpig for all I care. :wink:
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Post by Palzon »

PBS ran a recent special that cited experiments that demonstrated a profound man-made impact on climate. I'm not sure how much detail can be found on the web, but here is link to the PBS show: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sun/
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Post by Will Robinson »

If we depend on a politician to educate us on anything you can be sure the quality of our education will be extremely compromised.
Gore is a world class tool but in spite of that no one has ever found anything that he can fix, the human contribution to global warming included.
I can't really blame a politician for being a politician though. He is the proverbial scorpion who stings the frogs back as the frog carries him across the river, who when asked why he did it since he will now surely drown said \"Because that's what I am, that's what scorpions do....\"

The press is to blame for allowing the two parties to play out their polarizing spin-fest on this and other issues. Instead of pointing out the glaring falsehoods and misleading rhetoric both sides use to scare up votes the press just picks a side of the story to support or challenge depending on how it will work in the ratings war!

The greatest evil in our time is the non-objective journalism that is passed off as news reporting. It's a thousand times more damaging than al Queda.
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Post by Skyalmian »

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Post by Zuruck »

Sky, most scientists get their data from weather satellites, not in the middle of smog filled cities. Fact of the matter is that even the Pentagon has come out and said that global warming is indeed a major threat to the United States. Yes, climate fluctuates over time, but when you add catalysts to the mix, it speeds and heightens the mold. Sure we've had hurricanes for a long time, but in the last decade, hurricane strength has been increasing to a point where it's swallowing cities.

Will, you're dumb to think bad journalism is the greatest evil now. Politicians represents the greatest evil to our society, hell, one party has successfully put America in the hole for the next couple dozen years. Newsies didn't do that, officials with too much power and corporations with too much pull did that.
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Post by VonVulcan »

Will Robinson wrote:If we depend on a politician to educate us on anything you can be sure the quality of our education will be extremely compromised.
Zuruck is the answer, Zuruck will save us! j/k :wink:
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Post by Will Robinson »

Zuruck wrote: Will, you're dumb to think bad journalism is the greatest evil now. Politicians represents the greatest evil to our society, hell, one party has successfully put America in the hole for the next couple dozen years. Newsies didn't do that, officials with too much power and corporations with too much pull did that.
Am I really dumb or are your reading comprehension skills lacking?

How the hell do you think they get away with the crap they pull?
Think about that and read my post again!
The evil they do should be caught in the grip of the reporting that isn't delivered....
The greatest and most important check and balance is the check that SHOULD BE provided by an objective presscorps!
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Post by Mobius »

If someone said to you they knew what the weather would be like in 31 days from now - would you believe them? If you say yes - you're a fool.

If someone says they know what the weather is going to be like in 95 years from now - would you believe them?

You would laugh in their face and call THEM a fool.

Everybody knows that Aliens cause global warming!

^^ Please read.
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Post by Palzon »

if 95 years ago i said that it in the year 2006 Texas would be hot in the summer and Antartica cold in the winter, I'd be correct. But I think it is possible to go further than this. I think it is possible to make valid, testable predictions about the trend.

You don't have to predict which house the tornado will destroy and which it will spare to make accurate and useful predictions. It is possible to note trends in surface temperature.

The link I provided above for the PBS show offers a transcript for the whole program. Don't take my word for it. Look at the transcript of that single show.
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Post by Zuruck »

Will, they are a smaller part of the bigger problem, even if they report accurately, which is rare, there is no accountability for anything in Washington. Look how Deep Throat was brandished by politicians, as a traitor, he helped uncover a huge political conspiracy, is what he did wrong? Accountability is the key and there is none of it where it needs to be most. That is not the fault of the reporters, I'd say it's more a fault of the American people for allowing it to happen. The culture of greed in Washington is something that we accept as citizens, and we shouldn't.
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Post by Will Robinson »

Zuruck wrote:Will, they are a smaller part of the bigger problem, even if they report accurately, which is rare, there is no accountability for anything in Washington. Look how Deep Throat was brandished by politicians, as a traitor, he helped uncover a huge political conspiracy, is what he did wrong? Accountability is the key and there is none of it where it needs to be most. That is not the fault of the reporters, I'd say it's more a fault of the American people for allowing it to happen. The culture of greed in Washington is something that we accept as citizens, and we shouldn't.
How the hell do you think you can impliment accountability without a free, objective and independant watchdog willing to scream loudly and point the finger of blame at the politicians?!? The press is our only hope, they are the keepers of the 30 second soundbite that the citizens depend on to form their opinions around.

Never mind, you always manage to totally avoid the point unless it's wrapped in anti-Bush or anti-christian sentiment...then, and only then, do you pay any attention.

You are exemplifying the very characteristic you decry, that of 'a citizen allowing the process to happen'!
You're a poster child for the one-party-disguised-as-two club.

Welcome to the Status Quo Airlines! Where we have no destination but we're taking you for a ride everyday!
Today the in flight movie is Gay Marriage is Killing America...tommorrow your in flight movie is a double feature, Republicans are Making Your Grandmother Eat Dog Food and Bush Sent Katrina To New Orleans to Drown the Negroes.
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Post by Fusion pimp »

Never mind, you always manage to totally avoid the point unless it's wrapped in anti-Bush or anti-christian sentiment...then, and only then, do you pay any attention.
And I thought I was the only person who noticed it.

Don't forget to add \"emotional anti-firearm stance based on no logic or facts\" to your list.
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Post by Zuruck »

Heh, well there is no logic that gun nuts understand so why bother. And of course it's the media's fault on this one, they don't like the man that Will is in love with.
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Post by Suncho »

Has anyone actually seen this movie besides me? I thought it was pretty well done.
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Post by Herculosis »

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Post by Pandora »

Wow, Herculosis, this article is complete spin. The author makes it appear as if Gore's views would not reflect the current scientific state of the art, when in fact the opposite is true. Gore's movie get's the science really well.

As stated by Gore, the worldwide (!!!) scientific consensus is that (a) global warming IS happening, and that (b) man-made greenhouse gas emissions ARE the reason for it. You can read it up in a recent joint statement of the National Academies of Science (.pdf).

The scientific debate implied by your article does not exist, even though the article works hard to create this impression. Try it yourself. Google some of the names the article mentions, and find their publication list (if they even have one). You will find, first, that almost none of them are real climate scientists. Second, even if they are, they have not published their views and subjected them to peer-review by fellow experts. This process of peer-review is what distinguishes real science - no matter which field - from merely having an opinion. The fact that these persons are 'professors' - as emphasized by the article - does not count although it sounds really impressive.
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Post by Dakatsu »

To me, as long as this film gets people off their non-global warming believing asses and say \"Hey, it does exist! Wow, never could of guessed, it is too hot for me to of figured that out on my own.\", then it is a good movie. I am trying to go to the movie, either by my parents, friends, or girlfriend taking me, though. I guess though I could just wait for it to be on HBO or something.
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Post by Top Wop »

I think you missed the point:

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/harris061206.htm

Its a good article to read.
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Post by Pandora »

What would the point be, then?
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Post by Pandora »

Ah, now I get it. Top Wop, you obviously missed that Herculosis posted the exact same link four posts above, and that I have already commented on one post later. Please read again what I have written. Your article is definately NOT 'a good article to read' (unless of course you have a special interest in disinformation).
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Post by Will Robinson »

From digging through the rhetoric from both sides I have found that \"most scientists\" only agree that man's pollution has contributed to the conditions that add to global warming. Not that man has caused it or even that his contribution is the major cause of global warming. That is where the real scientific debate lives right now, just how much has man added to the warming....

Once again I have to point the finger of blame squarely at the press. If they would raise holy hell everytime some party from any faction of the political spectrum tried to demagogue an issue or lie in denial there would be a whole lot less bull★■◆● passing for information in the conversations of the average voter and politicians would be forced to do a lot more representing the publics interest instead of protecting the incumbancy of their respective party!!

One thing seems evident to me, of all the factors that contribute to global warming, volcanos, the suns increased BTU output, cows farting, etc. only mans contribution seems to be within our power to limit or end so certainly it's worth looking to reduce it especially since the methods to reduce it would go hand in hand with energy conservation and alternative fuel sources etc. etc. But reasonable actions should be the reaction, not taxing america since we produce X amount and have more wealth and exempting China because they...well no one ever said why they were exempt did they? Since when did collecting taxes ever stop global warming anyway?!?

No, Kyoto and other enviromentalist whacko plans need to be scrapped in favor of simple, concrete, provable improvements and reachable targets or the two headed political monster will make sure the enviroment just remains an issue to scare their constituency back into their respective corners with.

Of course to get there we need a press we can trust to hold the politico's feet to the fire instead of playing along with one side or the other! Instead they seem consumed with merely trying to be the great balance makers as if the proper course was to make sure neither party gets too far ahead of the other! WTF??? As if the status quo is a place we want to be? As if either party really ever puts the people first in any calculation?

Basically the root of all evil can be blamed on man but the ability for any man to perpetuate his evil unchallenged rests soley on the shoulders of the press who forgot their true purpose.
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Post by Suncho »

Will, I'd love to hear what you think of the film.
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Post by Will Robinson »

I'm not going to pay Al at the ticket box, I don't get that many chances to go to the theater and would rather see something entertaining when I do get the chance but I'll watch it if it comes on HBO or something.

I've already heard a few scientist debate some of the content and my initial impression is the movie is full of many truths but laced with lots of hyperbole and some truly misleading quotes from scientists like when they say global warming increases the area to spread west nile because the mosquitos like the warmer climate. Duh! as if Michigan never got above 50 degrees before global warming?!?!
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Post by Suncho »

I actually found it pretty entertaining. Maybe our tastes differ. =) There are definitely some things in it that are wrong, but I thought it was good overall.

I don't remember him saying anything about mosquitos spreading the west nile virus more because they like the warmer climate. But even if he did, you gotta remember that slight shifts in *WHEN* the 50 degree weather hits, can make a big difference.

EDIT: I'm not a scientist, but I found the movie fascinating. Pandora knows a lot more about this stuff than I do.
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Post by Pandora »

Will Robinson wrote:From digging through the rhetoric from both sides I have found that "most scientists" only agree that man's pollution has contributed to the conditions that add to global warming. Not that man has caused it or even that his contribution is the major cause of global warming. That is where the real scientific debate lives right now, just how much has man added to the warming....
Where do you get this from, Will? From what I have read it is now pretty clear that the current warming is NOT attributable to natural causes. In fact, i have seen no conclusive evidence for a major influnce of a natural warming process anywhere. But I am happy to be proven wrong on this, especially because - as you say - no matter how strong the natural factors are, our own role in the warming process is the only thing we can change.
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Post by Pandora »

edit: here is a pretty good writeup of how some potential natural causes for the warming have been ruled out.
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Post by Pandora »

Suncho wrote: I'm not a scientist, but I found the movie fascinating. Pandora knows a lot more about this stuff than I do.
Haven't seen the movie because it isn't showing here yet. At first I was pretty sceptical about it considering that it is (a) a movie and (b) made by a politician. But now the scientific community seems to be pretty happy with how the science and the basic conclusions are represented. Still, there will be some simplifications in it. The underlying science is amazingly complex and with a movie like this you can't afford to lose your audience. The question is whether Gore is honest enough to not use these simplifications to sell his point.

My main point in all these discussions is that the facts of cliimate change are foremost scientific. The media and the politicians - no matter which side - are bound to use, distort and lie about these facts to foster their own ends. What everybody has to do is to look at what the scientists themselves have to say about it.
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Post by Will Robinson »

Suncho wrote:...I don't remember him saying anything about mosquitos spreading the west nile virus more because they like the warmer climate. But even if he did, you gotta remember that slight shifts in *WHEN* the 50 degree weather hits, can make a big difference.....
It was on HBO, a "Making Of _________" kind of documentary. The thing that bothers me is you're right that if Michagan hits 50 degrees two days earlier because of global warming then, sure, warming has increased the spawn window for the mosquito, but the way the scientist put it he implied that we now have west nile mosquito's in places we didn't before even though the details he laid out refuted that. It's Michael Moorish and I lose respect and have serious doubts about the truth in the movie if they use those kinds of tactics. How will I know how many other points they raise aren't also twisted truths designed to scare me? And again that's why a real objective press would be so useful because those using the Michael Moore tactics would be shamed right out of the industry instead the press rationalizes the use of such crap with the attitude that well, it at least brings the topic into the debate...WTF?!? That's the position of spinmiesters not reporters!

Tell me when they release the corrected, peer reviewed version of the movie because I don't want to have to do the fact checking for Al Gore just so I'll know what the heck I'm watching! I'd much rather see Pirates of the Carribean II and not have to check facts to know that Johnny Depp is cool as ice as a pirate ;)
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Post by Will Robinson »

Pandora wrote:My main point in all these discussions is that the facts of cliimate change are foremost scientific. The media and the politicians - no matter which side - are bound to use, distort and lie about these facts to foster their own ends. What everybody has to do is to look at what the scientists themselves have to say about it.
Right there! (the bold accents are mine) there is the rub!
You have exemplified the biggest part of the problem in dealing with almost every issue we face.
You have surrendered the media to be a part of the problem, you accept it to be partisan in the debate instead of being a fact checker and watchdog on the players.
It's not unusual unfortunately, we all have done it but it will be our undoing if we don't wake up and demand objectivity in journalism. The free press is our only weapon to fight the inevitable corrupt and/or incompitent political machine.
How can we inform ourselves by listening to what the scientist themselves say about something if we are forced to hear it through the media which has a side in the debate?!?
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Post by VonVulcan »

Pandora wrote:edit: here is a pretty good writeup of how some potential natural causes for the warming have been ruled out.
Ok, I read most of the material at that link. It may be accepted scientific method to examine "eons" of data and draw conclusions. I don't buy it. Not when you try and apply it to the last 100 years. We have only had decent recording methods for a relativly short time. The more sensational the data can be made to appear, the more money it will generate. The more politicians will try and use it to control the people.
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Post by dissent »

There is an article here from the August 2002 Physics Today that is interesting. Discusses in some detail (see figures and links therein) the assumptions and uncertainties in several of the various types of climate models.

edit - oh, and this is interesting too, if a bit older. As the saying goes, it's hard to make predictions, especially about the future. :P

oh, and this too.
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Post by Pandora »

Thanks for the links, Dissent. The second one is definately outdated. On you website, Dr. Roy Spencer describes that his satellite data shows that the lower troposphere is not warming although it should, according to the climate change models. He says this would indicate problems with the models.

Not so. It has since turned out that his computation of the satellite data was erroneos and that there were calibration problems with the satellite that's been in space for 30 years now. Dr. Roy Spencer has since then acknowledged the error and the data now show the warming. So, case in point for the climate models :)
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