The thief bot is killable. Prox bombs and smart mines are your friends, esp if you know the thief bot is coming up behind you or behind a door you know he has to come out of eventually. Furthermore, some levels have such a long draw distance that the thief is still visible for your weapons, but he can't 'see' you, making him a perfect immobile target.

Ferno · Posted Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:08 pm

Xamindar wrote:

Where at Ferno? In the reactor room somewhere?

It usually happens when I'm dealing with that thiefbot.

zico · Posted Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:57 pm

I recall 0.53 had a possible memory problem with the thief, but that should be gone in 0.54.

Duper · Posted Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:03 pm

3 levels in I got tired of dealing with a thiefbot that was too fast to deal with.

oh well.

Ferno · Posted Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:03 am

um who playtested this levelset?

level 3's a joke. wrong bots for that environment.

level 4 is simply a test in frustration.

I had to resort to hunt and peck tactics. definitely not fun.

Aus-RED-5 · Posted Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:06 am

Ferno wrote:

level 4 is simply a test in frustration.

x2.. I gave up on lvl 4.

Sirius · Posted Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:52 am

If need be, turning the difficulty level down might help.

DarkFlameWolf · Posted Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:58 am

Let's put it this way, these robots are significantly harder than vanilla standard robots. As a result, most people will be failing their first few times at the set, just like any new Mega Man game that comes out that forces you to die often to get better. So my strong suggestion would be to use a difficulty skill one level less (or more) than what you're used to playing, since these robots are that much more lethal. You can't face up against brand new robots and dive into the set at your typical 'ace' or 'insane' skill that you always use and expect to win. Try it at a lower skill level and learn the ways and weapons and tactics of each new robot and where they are placed. That way, you can later prove who is boss in a higher skill level.
In fact, some new robots may require you to develop a brand new strategy you never used before. You can't just expect us to hand the mission set over to you without a fight now, right?
I've gotten to the point I can beat Ace with minimal difficulty, simply because I a) know all robots and what they can do and b) know the lay of the land and the secrets I need to hit to do better.
Its all about practice. The thief can be killed, level 4 can be beat. Its simply practice. Later when you own this mission set and can beat it with your eyes closed, you'll be glad it was as tough as it was rather than very easy and a letdown. Because then it will feel like an accomplishment.

Pumo · Posted Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:16 am

Aus-RED-5 wrote:

Ferno wrote:

level 4 is simply a test in frustration.

x2.. I gave up on lvl 4.

Really? That's one of the best levels of the set! Sad

I've played it (and BTW, i'm goin' to play it again, as i want to re-play the mission from level 1 again) and i liked it a LOT. The difficulty on it is one of the best features of this level Smile

DarkFlameWolf · Posted Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:28 am

trust me, it was harder originally, but we dumbed down a few enemies, one was the Mantid, it originally had faster speed and light-busting energy pulse (similar to diamond claws). But we since slowed it down a bit and took out its energy pulse and for the better in terms of difficulty. There were just too many Mantids going around to have it be any harder.
The other enemy I can think of is the Piper. It originally was a crackshot with perfect aim, enough to tear your ship to shreds with its vulcan cannon. But I dumbed it down so its still deadly, but it has a little bit of a spray to its cannon fire.

Duper · Posted Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:33 am

one small glitch i found. When the Harpoon shoots a phase energy shot, there is a green splash from the gun instead of something along the lines of gold or yellow like the phase blob.
If this was intentional then never mind. Smile

Pumo · Posted Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:02 pm

Duper wrote:

one small glitch i found. When the Harpoon shoots a phase energy shot, there is a green splash from the gun instead of something along the lines of gold or yellow like the phase blob.
If this was intentional then never mind. Smile

This is an issue from the original Descent2.ham. You can also notice this when the BPER shots its energy blobs.

Ferno · Posted Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:52 pm

it's not the difficulty of the robots that is in question, it is the type of robots in the level that is in question.

it's just does not make sense to have fast-moving, fast-firing and high damage inflicting robots two cubes away from the player. that is simply asking for problems.

DarkHorse · Posted Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:37 pm

I found nothing more difficult than usual on level 3, either on Insane or Rookie.

Kyouryuu · Posted Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:45 am

You've not an objective, third party observer.

DarkFlameWolf · Posted Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:05 pm

this is true, but our testers were. Other than the difficulty problems they voiced and we addressed, I didn't really hear much else from them about difficulty.

Sirius · Posted Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:05 pm

Technically, DH didn't make any of level 3.

Ferno · Posted Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:06 pm

again: difficulty is not in question. the types of robots used are.

DarkFlameWolf · Posted Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:32 pm

then I'm confused. If the difficulty is fine and its beatable by Ferno, then why are the robots wrong for the level? If the difficulty is fine, wouldn't that mean the robots work for the level then?

Kyouryuu · Posted Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:07 pm

It's not the overall difficulty in question, it's using the right robot for the right job. You can't just place robots haphazardly into a level and think it's going to be the best possible placement.

An abstract example is the way the M.A.X. robot is used in the Vertigo campaign. Parallax never stuck a M.A.X. in a narrow corridor all alone. It was always in a large room, where you can dodge its attack, and amidst other robots that could best exploit temporary blindness.

It's the drawback to adding the robots after the fact with little to no planning until the structure is completed. It's difficult to create environments the favor the tactical abilities of each robot.

Kyouryuu · Posted Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:18 pm

Diedel wrote:

I have been reading Ferno's and Kyouryuu's comments on the robot placement in TEW and have to say the following.

On the one hand they say their complaints are not about general difficulty of the levels, on the other hand they are complaining the levels would be too hard, and that would be because the wrong bots had been used for their environments.

Now difficulty is about how hard a level is to beat, right?

The two guys should start to think about what they are writing.

Apart from that, even if Parallax only placed certain robots in certain environments that is no doctrine, and if you want to make a level harder to beat by placing some weird robot in narrow corridors, why not? Unless the level author doesn't provide any means to beat that level (by also offering appropriate weapons), I have no gripes with such level design. Actually the only problem I have with robots being placed in the wrong environment is if the robots are weakened too much by that (like the Mantids in level 9 Razz).

The two guys should get over the fact that the mission showed them their limits, stop whining and start thinking of finding proper tactics to beat the levels in question - or quit playing TEW, if it doesn't suit their playing style of apparently rushing into every location guns blazing, wiping away everything that moves.

As a side note I would like to mention that I do not quite understand the inclusion of one of Kyo's older level designs in TEW. First of all it's not a new level built specifically for TEW (I had played that level's stand alone version already), and secondly it's not exactly an overwhelmingly good level. It has a symmetric, rather boring layout and bland texturing (like many of Kyo's levels I know; he seems to prefer a rather uniform texturing style that I don't find too attractive - matter of taste maybe, but yet ...). You could have asked me to build one level for the set instead - while 5+1 was too much for me, I'd have certainly liked to build a single one (can still do that if you'd want to replace Kyo's level with it).

He makes me laugh. Laughing

Ferno · Posted Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:23 pm

Does it make sense to put four fusion minibosses in four corners that are two cubes away from the player?

or a red fatty in an energy center behind a 90 degree bend?

or a red hulk in front of where the player spawns?

when sniping, leaning the corner, stealth, tunnelratting, sneaking up behind or even dogfighting a robot does not work, how is that the player's fault?

if none of the above mentioned tactics do not work against any robots used in a level, it is time to rethink the type of robots used. It turns a level that's supposed to be fun into a slaughterhouse.

Xamindar · Posted Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:27 pm

lol, didn't know people bothered reading his crap any more. Laughing

Quote:

You could have asked me to build one level for the set instead - while 5+1 was too much for me, I'd have certainly liked to build a single one (can still do that if you'd want to replace Kyo's level with it).

Thank goodness you didn't. We would never hear the end of him complaining about not getting the proper recognition.

Pumo · Posted Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:55 pm

OMG!

Again, a sane post about an exciting new mission ended as the never-ending confrontation of the DBB.

This community is sucking a lot more and more everytime. Sad

Almost all users are always talking on Ethics & Commetary and when there is a chance to talk about an exciting descent related topic, it always end in conflict.

I'm not saying that Kyo is not right on his points (in fact, i like to read what he's saying, specially on the last post about robot placing, it lets me learn a bit more about level design, and i like some levels from him, specially those from Phobos E.) but what i don't like about this discussion is how instead of talking of how good the mission is ('cause at least IMO is very good, specially with Sirius/Darkhorse levels) everyone is complaining about bad robot placement.

C'mon, this is not a commercial mission, it's just a freebie on the net to enjoy a bit the glory of the great missions of the old D2 days. I question, it's not REALLY exciting to have a 32 levels mission with new story, high-quality level structures and new robots after so many years? it seems not, at least here on the DBB.

I don't see too much excitement about this descent revival mission here, even if this kind of projects are what makes Descent still alive (after those many years since the release). Sad

Again as i said, Kyo/Ferno comments are constructive at certain point, but it's not what i expected from a supposed 'Descent' community. As i said before, it seems all ppl here prefer to argue about everything (that's why E&C and PTMC Cafe are the most active forums now, even if they are not Descent related) instead of enjoy the best game of all times: Descent (and yes, also all glorious fanmade missions for it).

This is disappointing. Crying or Very sad

Xamindar · Posted Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:05 pm

Hey now. It only seems like one or two people are complaining about issues. I guess me included if you count the post about the thief bot (I just gave up on him and left him to die in level 1). I can avoid him just fine, it was actually trying to hit him that frustrated me.

Anyway. I want to say that the Mantids are COOL. They are fast and surprizing and they look so cool charging for my ship. I love them.

Oh, and on the music thing. The second level had a new song so I guess the proper songs for the levels are playing, the first level was just the original d2 first level song. Is that correct?

Ferno · Posted Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:43 pm

We're trying to help you place your robots better. We're trying to point out where behaviors work and don't work. But if you expect to improve, you must listen to constructive criticism aswell. If no one plays your levelset past a certain point, that should tell you something.

I'm sorry you see it as an 'argument'. It is simply not the case.

Sirius · Posted Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:22 am

Technically you can't blame Pumo for that, although he could probably refer back to this later on for his own missions (and there are a few of them coming!). To get some kind of consistency, we had level designers build level "shells", then Wolf went through, worked out where in the set to place each level, and populated them with robots and powerups.

As a result, you're seeing her (admittedly twisted and probably proud of it!) taste in level balancing and the like. It doesn't surprise me that not everyone is a fan; Bahagad Outbreak and Lost Levels were tough as well. Nonetheless, if it's annoying you too much try turning down the difficulty a notch or two and see if you enjoy it any more. If it wrecks the mission for you, well, sorry, but that's life I guess.

I won't go heavily into the Diedel topic, but I will point out that quite a few of us do still listen to him, primarily because he has a wealth of valuable experience that is pretty difficult to come by these days.