Time enough for chips

[Insurrectionist]

So how do people feel about having a Microchip implanted under thier skin? Do you think it could happen? It maybe on the horizon. They have been doing it to animals for a while now. There are indications that science is moving inexorably closer to the use of microchips in humans. Some say it will happen. The need for instantaneous access to the medical records of individuals has been expressed by former President Clinton and now President Obama as a part of an universal health care coverage plan. Just think scanning a person will bring up thier entire medical records.

It could also facilitate and record financial transactions. Many credit card companies are already working to develop Smart Card technology, using chip-based payment products which are projected to reduce both fraud and transaction processing costs. Just think you could never have to reach into your back pocket for your wallet ever again. Moreover, if the credit card companies employed a microchip implant, instead of the current external Smart Card under development, the opportunity for loss or falsification would be even more drastically reduced.

Even important set of information that a read-write microchip could carry would be criminal records. If one were to apply for a job, employers could readily possible criminal convictions. This might be particularly important for sensitive positions such as security guards, bus drivers, or day care workers. Additionally, if a police officer made a routine traffic stop, the individual could be quickly \"scanned\" to see if he had a nefarious background.

You could buy plane tickets arrive at the airport be scanned and board the plane with out having a paper ticket. Drive through toll gates be scanned and have it charge your account for the toll without stopping. Prototypes of electronic toll systems are currently undergoing testing. Because of the multitude of applications, this type of read-write microchip would generate both commercial and governmental interest. In addition to the read-write capabilities described above, a device can also emit a radio signal which could be tracked.

Don't you love techo stuff?

http://piercelaw.edu/risk/vol8/fall/ramesh.htm#fn36

[Tunnelcat]

For a nation that doesn't even want a national I.D. card, how do you think people would react to a technology that a government could use to keep track of you? Or worse, corporations? Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek! Spam in my head ALLLLLLLL the time!

[Warlock]

i think its a grate idea but i see a big flaw in it and this is y i dont use pay pass credit cards but ill get to that reasion below.

ok i work for a Cstore chain and we where testing the pay pass system on are POS (Point Of Sale) system well we had a few exta readers so i took one apart and wired it to my laptop and instaled some capture software and i was able to walk by a few people wave the sensor loop by there purses\\wallets and zip i got there infromation. before i get the spill about how that is illagle i had let people know that i was ganna do that to before hand.. but who says that some one wont do that just walk by people pulling there info off.

now its wonderfull technology but its very dangerious i think.

[Spidey]

I like chips.

[Firewheel]

I would honestly rather kill myself than let this nation's evil government start plugging me full of computer chips. There is so much potential for abuse that the very fact people think this is a good idea makes me lose what little faith I had left in the human race.

[Krom]

I think it is entirely too dangerous, the potential for abuse and the damage that such abuse would cause far outweighs any convenience or benefit from allowing such a system to become reality.

[Octopus]

I'm sure the first Americans would have said the same thing to a \"drivers license\" or a \"state ID\" but now people go out to celebrate when one of their friends gets one.

We'll get government issue ID chips and we'll love them for it. It might even come right after we perfect robotic prosthetics that outperform your real arms and legs.

Artificial eyes might be required by law and as a side benefit, will contain the \"id\" chip.

[Kilarin]

Artificial eyes might be required by law

So, you would happily live in a society that required you to replace your eyes against your will?

I'm assuming you don't mean that people would be required to replace their eyes only in order to drive/fly, because any society with sufficiently advanced technology to have artificial eyes, and with enough power over the population to order them to replace organs, would surely insist upon AI drivers for all non-military transportation vehicles.

[Octopus]

It depends on what all happens first. I assume that we'll have implants that will allow us to integrate with technology before we have intelligent AI.

And yes. I would love to \"plug\" into my car's senses and feel like I am the car.
Cops would have enhanced vision along with trajectory paths drawn, for their projectile weapons.

And I think we’ll all join in. It will be too cool.

[CUDA]

Mark of the Beast???

[Kilarin]

I assume that we'll have implants that will allow us to integrate with technology before we have intelligent AI.

Clarification, I meant expert systems. We already have experimental "autopilot" cars. A lot closer to reality than artificial eyes. (Although they certainly ARE playing with eye replacements, and getting closer every day)

And I think we’ll all join in. It will be too cool.

It certainly might be cool. That wasn't my question. It was: would you be comfortable living under a government that REQUIRED people to have artificial eyes, whether they wanted to or not?

[Octopus]

It certainly might be cool. That wasn't my question. It was: would you be comfortable living under a government that REQUIRED people to have artificial eyes, whether they wanted to or not?

I would. If not doing so would make me less money: yes. And making more money and working less is the human goal. I'll add, that's the whole point of living in a society. If you spent all of your time in the wild, a high percentage of that time would be spent on surviving. The more we give up to our government the less time we'll spend on surviving. That’s why we participate. No? Now that I’m off topic completely: I see a future where we spend no time surviving and have zero freedoms. Will it be bad..? Who knows.

Clarification, I meant expert systems. We already have experimental "autopilot" cars. A lot closer to reality than artificial eyes. (Although they certainly ARE playing with eye replacements, and getting closer every day)

We have artificial eyes in the works. *looks up at one of your last posts* By my amazing powers of observation, I can tell you know this already. We only need to make the input better and it will be ready to sell for the masses. After that stage blackberry, apple, and the other PDA makers will figure out how to make it do all the cool scifi stuff. How is that farther away than AI advancing to the point where it can drive better than I can. I did see the second great robot race, on nova. And I think that we’re not that close. Plus, computer assisted seeing would do much more than make you a better driver. Imagine software that could display an overlay of the car you’re looking at by using the CAD file. And how would doctors benefit from these new eyes? The possibilities are endless. On the other end of things, AI just has so much farther to go. I’ll give it points since AI can already mesh with technology better than a human body can. But the human mind is already set for complex task and only needs better connectivity.

edit: I'm not trying to go against anyones belief system.

[Behemoth]

666

[Kilarin]

We have artificial eyes in the works. ... We only need to make the input better and it will be ready to sell for the masses.

Perhaps you have more information on this than I do, because last time I checked, input (data going into the eye) was pretty good. The problem is output to the brain. the highest resolution was not much better than an 8x8 grid. An INCREDIBLE success, but a very, VERY long way from something I'd replace a working eye with. But I may be behind on the tech.

Anyway, technology jumps in unexpected directions, so who knows.

edit: I'm not trying to go against anyones belief system.

If you mean religious beliefs. I don't THINK I'd have any religious objections, I'd have to give it much more thought and study. I am dead certain many people would object on religious grounds. But I don't see why you should apologize for suggesting you'd like something others might disapprove of, only for FORCING it on anyone.

making more money and working less is the human goal.

Well, it's "A" goal, but its not the primary goal of many. But goals are individual.

that's the whole point of living in a society.

Well, technology is easier to support in an organized society I suppose, and organized societies are usually organized by a system of government. So I guess I sort of see where your coming from here. But I see the government as more of a side-effect/necessity of living in groups. Government CAN help with technological development, but it more often gets in the way. Usually it's simply irrelevant.

If you spent all of your time in the wild, a high percentage of that time would be spent on surviving.

Actually, it depends on what kind of wilderness living you are doing. Modern hunter gatherer tribes usually spend less than 20 hours a week "working". "Primitive" agricultural societies certainly can have governments. One of the inspirations for the US Government was the way the Iroquois had organized themselves.

We all give up "freedom" for wealth, in that it takes time to earn a living, but, I just don't see that a powerful and controlling government is related to more leisure time and wealth for it's population. Quite the opposite in fact.

The more we give up to our government the less time we'll spend on surviving. That’s why we participate. No? Now that I’m off topic completely: I see a future where we spend no time surviving and have zero freedoms. Will it be bad..? Who knows.

The libertarian in me is horrified!

I know I'm being redundant here, but your views are very different from mine (and different in an interesting way), so I want to make certain I am not misunderstanding:

A: You feel that the more power a government has over it's citizens, the more leisure time and wealth those citizens will have.

B: You feel that giving up freedom to the government in exchange for more leisure time and wealth is a fair trade.

Have I got those right? Sorry for re-asking the questions, but I think it could be very important. If lots of people have the same opinions that you do, it would explain why they think increasing the size and power of the government is a good solution to their problems.

666

that WAS my first thought.

[Bet51987]

My opinion... I would have chips implanted in every child born.

Bee

[Nightshade]

All the easier for child molesters to track their prey.

[Bet51987]

All the easier for child molesters to track their prey.

I'll work on that next.

Bee

[Octopus]

The highest resolution was not much better than an 8x8 grid.

That’s old. Yes, I’ve seen that. There are many companies out there doing much better these days.

But I don't see why you should apologize for suggesting you'd like something others might disapprove of, only for FORCING it on anyone.

Has anyone forced the credit card? The cell phone? The drivers license? There will always be those who reject these things. But my feelings are, as we improve on them, the more people will accept them. The “ocular pda” should be able to combine these things, making it a requirement, to do certain things.

Well, technology is easier to support in an organized society I suppose, and organized societies are usually organized by a system of government. So I guess I sort of see where your coming from here. But I see the government as more of a side-effect/necessity of living in groups. Government CAN help with technological development, but it more often gets in the way. Usually it's simply irrelevant.

You’re right! I completely agree, except that times have changed. The Romans and Chinese built many amazing things for their people, back when governments had control of advancement. Today it’s the businesses that rule our advancement. If our global economy is the universe then the 80’s was when the big bang occurred. I’m very sorry but I misspoke (or wrote)! We give our freedoms up only to society (not a government). Entrepreneurs have freed up so much of our time by doing different amazing things with the computer chip. Data that once took decades to sort, can be done in seconds and more accurately. Governments try to understand and control our new economy and technology. But it’s too big and fast changing. It evolves faster as new unheard of business models arise. And to see the future you have to ask, what goal is it we’re pushing this economic technology monster towards? We’re becoming more lazy and consume more than ever. What I’m saying is, The United States job is to consume. Working less, only to afford very expensive items is something everyone here can now do, and we’ll just keep getting better at it. ….anyway way off topic.

Actually, it depends on what kind of wilderness living you are doing….

I guess if you’re just talking about staying alive, then yes. But compare how much you accomplish in one day next to one of those tribal people, you’ll seem like Dr. Manhattan in comparison (big blue godish-thing).

The libertarian in me is horrified!

Don’t be horrified! Be happy! Obey!!! :p

A: You feel that the more power a government has over it's citizens, the more leisure time and wealth those citizens will have.

Not the Government… we’ve seen China, Russia, and Cuba… This new society we’ve given birth to is unlike anything we’ve ever seen before. Look how much has changed since the early 90’s? We’re giving up our freedoms to hundreds of corporations, and we can’t get enough. I love google!

B: You feel that giving up freedom to the government in exchange for more leisure time and wealth is a fair trade.

Replace the word government (because they don’t know what’s going on) with big to small powerful businesses. Not too powerful! Just enough to make our lives cheaper and faster moving. And yes! We will lose all of our freedoms to them. Our government will hang on for dear life.

Did I mention I’m a bit crazy?

[Insurrectionist]

Did I mention I’m a bit crazy?

A bit?

[Octopus]

Did I mention I’m a bit crazy?

A bit?

I'm pretty sure, anyway.

[ccb056]

My opinion... I would have chips implanted in every child born.

Bee

Hrm, what other medical procedures would you mandate? Hitler much?

[Kilarin]

my feelings are, as we improve on them, the more people will accept them

Oh, I absolutely agree. I only disagree that any government should REQUIRE such augmentation, as you stated originally.

But compare how much you accomplish in one day next to one of those tribal people, you'll seem like Dr. Manhattan in comparison (big blue godish-thing).

That also is a matter of perspective. If you asked a tribal hunter gatherer to compare our days he would probably say:

"That city guy sat in front of a glowing rock and wiggled his fingers for hours and hours and hours. What was the point of that? Then he came home tired and he and his family ate something really repulsive that came out of a box. They stared at another glowing rock for a bit, and then, even though he hadn't moved hardly all day, he went to bed. Nice soft beds, but no wind, no birds, no stars. *I*, however, caught 3 fish, then dug up some really good roots, the extra tasty white lumpy ones. The wife cooked them all up into a lovely stew, she added in some onions and leaves she found out back, and it was delicious! The kids and I played chase around the camp for a while, then after they fell asleep, happy and exhausted, the wife and I made love all night long under the stars. Tomorrow, when the sun is high in the sky and the city guy has already been staring at his glowing rock and wiggling his fingers for hours, I'll get up and go back to MY job of catching fish, gathering food, eating, playing, and being alive. I'm not even really certain if that city guy IS alive. Perhaps he's dead and the glowing rock just keeps his fingers wiggling anyway. Don't know, but I certainly wouldn't trade places."

Don't get me wrong, I LIKE living in a high technology world, but its all a matter of perspective.

Replace the word government (because they don't know what's going on) with big to small powerful businesses. Not too powerful! Just enough to make our lives cheaper and faster moving. And yes! We will lose all of our freedoms to them

Well, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on whether this is all good or not. But I really do appreciate you explaining your point of view to me!

[Octopus]

Going back to the original point. I see drivers licenses getting chips before people do. You know there's an underground market for stolen IDs. That market won't go away just because they have to start ripping it out of people. And the demand will go up once these chips are given more power than drivers licenes once had

Also I'm wondering what company is behind all of this. Government officials don't invent things like this, they just spend money on stuff they get a good power point presentations on. The only reason we wouldn't see it in drivers licenses is because that's a state decision.

[Tunnelcat]

More study needed before use in humans?

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/82032.php

Octopus, you're not paranoid enough! The marketed benefits are not always the nice altruistic reasons for the things the people want done. There's always ulterior motives.

[Octopus]

I'm pretty sure zombies will rise out of mexico. That's the REAL reason for our second amendment rights.

[Canuck]

My opinion... I would have chips implanted in every child born.

Bee

Bettina you trust the Government and Corporations far too much. There is a very real and great risk of identity theft with these systems. Imagine terrorists sitting in an airport monitoring these implants and saying, "He's an American, she's a Jew...", not to mention giving up all your privacy to the huge conglomerates with no other agenda but to themselves.

If you want to tag your kids like a good little robot be my guest. But if this ever became mandated I'd go underground first before being tagged like an animal.

Buy the way ten seconds on low in most microwaves will pop the chips in the money and ID. Carbonized crap is unreadable.

[Bet51987]

No one knew the reason for my opinion... yet the comments came.

And, speaking of paranoia, do you know that their are \"people\" who wouldn't call the police even if they saw a child abducted? God what a sorry bunch of people those are.

Bettina

[Tunnelcat]

Bettina, it's nice too see someone with such a trusting soul. There are many close people I would trust and then there are those I would not. However, I would definitely call the police if I saw a child being abducted or even assaulted by a parent. I'm with Canuck here. I wouldn't trust the government or any corporation about as far as I could throw them, which isn't very far.

Implanting chips in children might be a good idea for keeping track of them for their safety and medical reasons, but there are just too many opportunities for nefarious activities. Now on the flip side, implanting chips in criminals, pedophiles or for people charged with restraining orders, it would make it easier to keep track of them and help law enforcement.

One great idea I've heard of is placing RFID chips in food packaging for ease of tracking in case of food recalls or other problems and the really nice benefit is when you shop, all your products could be read without removing the items from the cart. You just prepack the items in your own bag the way you want, whip through the scanner and pay, no bagging or handling, dropped eggs or squished bread.

[Canuck]

Whats scary is that consuming nano-probe RFID elements in our food and air is entirely feasible. The children of today have been effectively influenced from the constant bombardment of technology and do not know that they have even given up their freedoms and privacy. They know no differences because they do not know what it was like before.

I remember getting a rotary dial telephone was a big thing in our family and was to be used sparingly because it was on a party line. If I wanted to know if a friend was home or what was up I was told to walk or bike over and find out. Today kids post their most intimate details online for the whole world to see.

Bettina if I see something wrong happening I'm the kind that doesn't stand and watch or walk away... I guess I'm one of the rare ones.

[Insurrectionist]

No one knew the reason for my opinion... yet the comments came.

And, speaking of paranoia, do you know that their are "people" who wouldn't call the police even if they saw a child abducted? God what a sorry bunch of people those are.

Bettina

I know where you're coming from. An old article will tell this. I think it is a bad idea but some don't.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/09/ ... 93933.html

I remember getting a rotary dial telephone was a big thing in our family and was to be used sparingly because it was on a party line.

I remember those too.

[Tunnelcat]

Whats scary is that consuming nano-probe RFID elements in our food and air is entirely feasible. The children of today have been effectively influenced from the constant bombardment of technology and do not know that they have even given up their freedoms and privacy. They know no differences because they do not know what it was like before.

I remember getting a rotary dial telephone was a big thing in our family and was to be used sparingly because it was on a party line. If I wanted to know if a friend was home or what was up I was told to walk or bike over and find out. Today kids post their most intimate details online for the whole world to see.

Canuck, I wasn't talking about nano-RFID's that you would CONSUME. I was talking about putting them in the outside packaging! I definitely wouldn't want to eat the damn things and THEN get tracked by some corporation! I just liked the idea of making shopping simpler, quicker and more efficient.

Gawd! The party line! I haven't heard about those for YEARS! My grandparents used to be on one because there wasn't enough operators or switches to give everyone in the neighborhood their own lines. You used to have to wait for a neighbor to hang up before you made a call. It really created the snoopy old biddy and the local rumor mill industry! You had to be careful what you said because invariably some neighbor was bored and listening in! I still have an old Ma Bell harvest gold colored rotary wall phone stored away as a collector's item.

[Canuck]

Bettina probably was never exposed to rotary phones and party lines either. TV was another biggy... we were allowed 2 hours a week. So that amounted to 4 1/2 hour series, or what my sister and I wisely chose to do was save our allotted viewing time for Red Skelton, an hour or so show with a time slot that allowed us to be past our bedtimes on Friday nights by a whole half hour.

Hehe that rotary was a heavy sucker and more than a few murders were committed by being clobbered by telephones.

[Kilarin]

No one knew the reason for my opinion... yet the comments came.

I'll bite. For tracking purposes I assume?

And yes, I would certainly respond if I thought a child was being abducted.

On the issue of RFID chips at the grocery store. I'm quite certain it's going to happen. But I don't think everyone realizes the full implications. They can be destroyed, but they don't turn off. So unless you take the time to microwave all of the clothes you purchased at Target, you are now continually broadcasting the id numbers of everything you've purchased. Those id's can be read easily from 30 foot away, some folks have demonstrated successful reads at much greater distances.

---

So consider, Target knows the numbers of everything it sold to you. Target has sensors around the store designed to read and track the rfid chips. When you walk by, they cross check against the database and see that your belt, boots, and flowerdy Hawaii shirt were purchased at Target over the last three months with a credit card which has your name on it. They pull up your purchase history, notice that you haven't bought any underarm deoderant in quite some time, and the little tv's up and down the isle start showing adds for your favorite brand.

They also recognize a non-Target RFID chip. The Target computer system does some research and determines that it's for a brand of jeans sold by Wal-Mart. Very cheap jeans. The computer decides that you are NOT likely to be purchasing any of the higher priced Target jeans, so it doesn't waste any time pushing those at you.

In your cart, the computer detects an unpurchased bottle of expensive purfume. It peaks back into it's database, and..., hmmm, ah yes! There it is. A female came into the store last week wearing lingerie that had been purchased on your card. The database indicates that her birthday is coming up next week. A sales person gets a beep in their earpiece and the computer directs them to your location in the store and indicates some rather pricy gift items that you might be talked into purchasing.

Later that evening, as you are walking through the mall, the teenager, who appears to be talking on their cell phone is actually scanning passers by. They pick up the RFID chip in your rolex watch, thats no fake! its legit! A few minutes later, as you turn into the bathroom, you are quietly followed by five young hoodlums.

---

I agree with Octopus in that I think it's very likely to happen. And it will certainly have it's advantages. I HATE checkout lines. BUT, it's going to have some rather severe and terrifying affects on our privacy.

[Duper]

No one knew the reason for my opinion... yet the comments came.

And, speaking of paranoia, do you know that their are "people" who wouldn't call the police even if they saw a child abducted? God what a sorry bunch of people those are.

Bettina

couple of things quick.

well sure the comments came, but ou offered no explaination. You know this board.

I understand the concern about abduction, but most kids aren't abducted. You have a better chance of being in a car wreck. AND, most kids that get swipped are done so by an astranged parent via divorce or whatever. Once in a while a child is grabbed by a slimeball nobody for thrills, but not enough to warrant that EVERY child should be tagged with chips.

I don't want it and don't want to be forced. You can understand that.

It's also oh.. I'll say "dangerous" to make extreme statements like that. .. trust me, I know.


...carry on.

personally, the food chip thing botheres me more as we aren't told if they are in our food. I don't care WHY. I want to be eating only food ... not bits of someone's hard drive. (this is a concern about foreign contamination, not mind or info control)

[Octopus]

My opinion... I would have chips implanted in every child born.

Bee

No. The demand for children by those who kidnap them, won't go down. They'll only have to remove/destroy the device inside the kid.
edit:
(That means they have to cut into the kid.)
edit edit:
(..maybe all over to find it.)

[Tunnelcat]

Bettina probably was never exposed to rotary phones and party lines either. TV was another biggy... we were allowed 2 hours a week. So that amounted to 4 1/2 hour series, or what my sister and I wisely chose to do was save our allotted viewing time for Red Skelton, an hour or so show with a time slot that allowed us to be past our bedtimes on Friday nights by a whole half hour.

I didn't watch a lot of TV in the 50's and 60's. Most of the shows sucked BIG TIME, especially the ones in the 50's. All old variety, musical, vaudeville type stuff. Oh and the WESTERN! Ick! They hadn't quite got the idea of TV yet. I did like the Carol Burnett Show though! But usually it was outside to play for me.

The more I think about it, the more BIG BROTHER scary RFID chips sound to me. Too many chances for abuse, even in food packaging. The damn stores already keeps track of my purchases through those cards they use. They print out coupons and special offers tailored to my shopping habits. Kind of creepy. YOU ARE BEING MONITORED!

[Insurrectionist]

The more I think about it, the more BIG BROTHER scary RFID chips sound to me. Too many chances for abuse, even in food packaging. The damn stores already keeps track of my purchases through those cards they use. They print out coupons and special offers tailored to my shopping habits. Kind of creepy. YOU ARE BEING MONITORED!

Are you a member of our "reward zone" What is your phone number? What is your zip code? What is your email address? I get so tired of those questions. I ask them the same thing or I tell them that is kind of personal I hardly know you.

[Duper]

ive started giving out a fake number and info. they don't need to know that stuff.

[snoopy]

So how do people feel about having a Microchip implanted under thier skin? Do you think it could happen?

Yes. I do, in fact think it will happen. I see it being sold to us as an anti-fraud and anti-ID theft device. The banks and CC companies will be all over it, and incentive-ise people to sign up for it because it will mean less liability for them dealing with fraud.

The need for instantaneous access to the medical records of individuals has been expressed by former President Clinton and now President Obama as a part of an universal health care coverage plan. Just think scanning a person will bring up thier entire medical records.

He has a point. It will also lead to profiling... which is the bad part. I don't agree... but some lives could be saved via this. (This is coming from the Libertarian/Republican.)

It could also facilitate and record financial transactions. Many credit card companies are already working to develop Smart Card technology, using chip-based payment products which are projected to reduce both fraud and transaction processing costs. Just think you could never have to reach into your back pocket for your wallet ever again. Moreover, if the credit card companies employed a microchip implant, instead of the current external Smart Card under development, the opportunity for loss or falsification would be even more drastically reduced.

Even important set of information that a read-write microchip could carry would be criminal records. If one were to apply for a job, employers could readily possible criminal convictions. This might be particularly important for sensitive positions such as security guards, bus drivers, or day care workers. Additionally, if a police officer made a routine traffic stop, the individual could be quickly "scanned" to see if he had a nefarious background.

You could buy plane tickets arrive at the airport be scanned and board the plane with out having a paper ticket. Drive through toll gates be scanned and have it charge your account for the toll without stopping. Prototypes of electronic toll systems are currently undergoing testing. Because of the multitude of applications, this type of read-write microchip would generate both commercial and governmental interest. In addition to the read-write capabilities described above, a device can also emit a radio signal which could be tracked.

Don't you love techo stuff?

http://piercelaw.edu/risk/vol8/fall/ramesh.htm#fn36

What's new about all of that? The only difference I see is how much harder it would be to go off the grid, or commit fraud. They already do lots of tracking of all sorts of our information via our credit cards, drivers licenses, and passports. this is just the next step of convenience for them.

[Insurrectionist]

Ok I didn't know that RFIDs were being put in driver licenses. Because of REAL ID Act passed in 2005 in the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Defense, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, 2005. For those born on or after December 1, 1964, a RealID must be obtained by December 1, 2014 to be allowed to conduct business with the federal government. Those born before December 1, 1964 have until December 1, 2017 to obtain their RealIDs.

Arkansas, Colorado, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, and Washington have joined Maine and Utah in passing legislation opposing Real ID.

Similar resolutions are pending in Alaska, Arizona, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Mexico, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Washington, D.C., West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming.

As of May 2009, Vermont, New York, Michigan and Washington are issuing enhanced driver's licenses and ID cards.

A news report this morning this guy found some things out