Page 1 of 1
Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am
by CUDA
serious discussion.
I have found no examples of successful Governmental Keynesian anywhere.. if someone has one I'd like to see it.
‘The fascinating thing to me is that the widespread faith in the potency of fiscal policy…rests on no evidence whatsoever. It’s based on pure assumption. It’s based on a priori reasoning.’”
…some Keynesians who supported Barack Obama’s $862 billion stimulus now claim it fell short of their goals not because the idea was flawed, but because the spending package was too small. Christina Romer, the departing chairman of Obama’s Council of Economic Advisers, has become a minor cult hero to the Keynesians, thanks to news reports that said her analysis in 2009 suggested the stimulus should be in the range of $1.2 trillion, or 40 percent larger than it turned out to be. The notion that a much-larger U.S. stimulus would have been more successful isn’t backed up by evidence. Maybe there would be an argument if some countries were now booming because their stimulus packages were larger. Or if some previous U.S. administration had tried a bigger stimulus and had better luck. The fact is, the U.S. stimulus was the largest among members of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, and the biggest ever tried in the U.S. Nor does the academic literature support what we might call these Not-Enough Keynesians. A 2002 study by economists Richard Hemming, Selma Mahfouz and Axel Schimmelpfennig of recessions in 27 developed economies from 1971 to 1998 found that increased spending by government had, in almost all cases, a barely noticeable impact, and sometimes a negative one. Heavily indebted countries that spent more in recessions grew about 0.5 percent less, relative to trend, than countries that didn’t, the study found. …Supporters of this type of stimulus are either unfamiliar with the literature or willing to ignore it. The result is policy that is harmful to our country and inconsistent with modern economic science. If the Obama economic team were medical doctors, they would be pushing the use of medicine not approved by the Food and Drug Administration. As the economic data again head south, it will be much harder to devise successful economic policies because of the budgetary hole that the Keynesians have dug for us. In all likelihood, the data will soon be so convincingly bad that we’ll again debate the need for an economic stimulus. Let’s hope that when that begins, all will finally concede that the ideas of John Maynard Keynes are as dead as the man himself, and that Keynesianism is the real voodoo economics.
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:06 pm
by vision

Citations, citations, always without citations on this forum (I know a small handful of you do).
The result is policy that is harmful to our country and inconsistent with modern economic science.
Serious discussion: Economics is not a science. It's not a science anymore than Christan Science, or Scientology, and has more in common with them than actual scientific disciplines. It's even less of a science than Psychology since that whole field of study is slowly shifting toward the superior field of Neuroscience. Economics is a bunch of theories that model perfect systems that do not, will not, and have never existed. Whenever you see an economic policy "work," it's just because the result happened to match the expected outcome.
On that note, go ahead with the whole tired Keynesian vs Austrian or whatever nonsense.
Oh, and yes, I do have an example of successful Governmental Keynesian policy, and I'm surprised you don't know what it is. Very surprised actually. It's
the perfect example and I thought of it immediately upon reading the title of this thread.
Have a nice day.
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm
by CUDA
So to be a successful Keynesian economy you must.
Eliminate all women and certain minorities from the workforce to achieve 0 unemployment.
Threaten to kill anyone that messes with the economy.
and run up massive debt almost 150% of GDP
And those are among the better qualities of your examples Do you have any examples a little more friendly to the populous
edit for spelling, typing on a smart phone sucks

Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:01 pm
by Tunnelcat
Those who are for Keynesian Economics (Paul Krugman et al) are forgetting 3 important things that will now cause it's failure. We are now in a global economy, arbitrage is the driving force behind it and those same corporations pretty much run our government.
But I can agree with Obama on one point. Our infrastructure, ie, roads, bridges, dams, etc., are deteriorating faster than we can fix things and private enterprise isn't going to step in and fix the mess for no profit. And if they did, they'd charge tolls or fees so high that only the rich could afford to use them.
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:52 pm
by Jeff250
If I had to pick, I would choose trickle up over trickle down, but neither represent responsible fiscal policy.
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:39 am
by Tunnelcat
On the flip side, I'd like someone to "prove" that supply side economics, aka, trickle down economics, actually benefits a society as a whole, like Reagan, Romney and Ryan have constantly claimed.
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:03 pm
by callmeslick
can't be done, TC.......
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:45 pm
by Tunnelcat
...........because it's never worked as advertized.

Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:37 am
by CUDA
tunnelcat wrote:...........because it's never worked as advertized.

ya tha'ts why America is the poorest country on the planet

Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:07 am
by callmeslick
CUDA wrote:tunnelcat wrote:...........because it's never worked as advertized.

ya tha'ts why America is the poorest country on the planet

and wasn't built that way during periods of trickle down economics. You see, during boom periods, government saw fit to underwrite infrastructure, and
in the strongest period of growth in our lifetimes, financed it with taxes up to 90% on the top income bracket.
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:48 pm
by Tunnelcat
CUDA wrote:tunnelcat wrote:...........because it's never worked as advertized.

ya tha'ts why America is the poorest country on the planet

It's been downhill for the middle class and the poor since Reagan. But if your wealthy....hoo haa! I guess it works for them!
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:04 pm
by Spidey
You meant to say Carter…right.
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:36 pm
by callmeslick
no, Reagan is the proper starting point.....at least looking back at my portfolio history,
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:30 pm
by Spidey
I don’t know if you are speaking about stock or not, but Carter’s Stock Market rating was 8 compared to Reagan’s 5 with Clinton having the best at 1. So if you did worse under Reagan than Carter, and went down from there, you should fire your broker.
But, actually I was trying to make a point, I think it’s about time we stop blaming this person or that party for the current state of the economy, and start to look at the much bigger picture…
The largest factor for why we are where we are is globalization, and other factors such as energy costs and the fact that the American consumer is too cheap to buy goods made by other Americans.
But, of course it’s much easier to blame some president you didn’t like or some evil corporation than to look in the mirror and accept some of the blame.
We have met the enemy…and he is us.
In my opinion
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:58 pm
by Tunnelcat
Spidey wrote:I don’t know if you are speaking about stock or not, but Carter’s Stock Market rating was 8 compared to Reagan’s 5 with Clinton having the best at 1. So if you did worse under Reagan than Carter, and went down from there, you should fire your broker.
Hmmmm. My portfolio has gone up 40% under Obama, whereas I lost quite a bit of value under Bush, and he had 8 years to get things going his way, in the tank.
Spidey wrote:But, actually I was trying to make a point, I think it’s about time we stop blaming this person or that party for the current state of the economy, and start to look at the much bigger picture…
The largest factor for why we are where we are is globalization, and other factors such as energy costs and the fact that the American consumer is too cheap to buy goods made by other Americans.
But, of course it’s much easier to blame some president you didn’t like or some evil corporation than to look in the mirror and accept some of the blame.
We have met the enemy…and he is us.
In my opinion
Ya know Spidey, I agree with you on this part of your statement 100%. But which came first, the lowering of wages that forced people to
have to buy cheaper stuff, or did the
demand for cheaper stuff start driving jobs offshore because of the higher wages here? It's a which came first question, the chicken or the egg, the low wages or the demand for cheap crap.
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:00 pm
by CobGobbler
Spidey, it's not that Americans are too cheap to buy American goods, they're simply not affordable. We've all stood idly by while wages have been stagnant for decades. That 2% raise your company gives you every year? Yeah that doesn't even cover the cost of living increases. I'd buy American (my guitars are all American made), but we rarely get the chance anymore.
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:01 pm
by Spidey
Bush’s stock rating was total crap, but I thought we were talking about Reagan starting some downward trend?
As I explained before tc, the trend towards the consumption of cheap goods started first. Everything was fine until those cheap goods started to hit the shore…do some research, the history of the timeline is there.
Not only that, it has happened before in history. Look into it, check out the kind of things that were done to mitigate.
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:45 pm
by Tunnelcat
I remember when the U.S. automakers almost got their clocks cleaned in the 1980's when the Japanese started building cars with the emphasis on quality, and people actually preferred and bought Japanese cars over of the domestics with that in mind. But even the Japanese are slipping back into the
build it quick and cheap mindset today. Cheap crap must be a reoccurring disease of the markets, because it always returns again and again, even after some people figure out that quality actually costs them less in the long run.
Funniest quote I heard during the conventions.
Obama wrote:Take two tax cuts, roll back some regulations, and call us in the morning!
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:45 am
by Top Gun
On the plus side, over the past few years, US automakers figured out that no one was buying their cars because of their shitty reliability, so they've made great strides in that department.
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:47 am
by Spidey
And the painful irony is…it was an American that was scorned by the US companies that taught the Japanese how to build quality.
Re: Has Governmental Keynesianism Ever Worked Anywhere?
Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:01 pm
by Tunnelcat
Yep, the guy was an American. The automakers should've listened to Demming before the Japanese almost took them down. I guess the Japanese were better listeners back then. But even they are starting to slip up now. Sony, JVC and Panasonic used to make reliable, long lasting products. Now even they make crappy throwaway junk that's made in China. It must a disease.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming