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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 6:58 am 
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Grendel wrote:
The current project archive can be found on this page. Scroll to the very bottom and look for the link labled "Project archive 2007-01-11". Future releases will be appended there.

Enjoy!


This archive has gerber's and all you in it.

If you prefer a fully assembled unit please respond in this thread, maybe you would just prefer a board you can reserve on there too.

This thread is offically closed. Please follow up your discussion in this thread...
http://descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?p=192956#192956

Best Regards,
KoolBear


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 11:53 am 
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KoolBear wrote:
This thread is offically closed.

Uhm, no :P This thread is also about the 3DP-Vert development and how to reproduce it.

KoolBear wrote:
Please follow up your discussion in this thread...
http://descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?p=192956#192956

Good idea if you want boards or an assembled converter. ;)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:03 pm 
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Point taken, I didn't consider support. Sorry Grendel.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:57 am 
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baloma wrote:
hi,
i'm new here...
i've been read this forum from days...

may i have your gerber files?
i want to make the PCB, becouse i have 3D pro too and i cannot use it anymore becouse my board doesnt have any game port anymore..

i hope u can help me in that part..
Thanks Alot

Baloma - Indonesia


Baloma - all project files are located on the Grendels 3DP-Vert Website at http://grendel.koolbear.com/ or here's a direct link HERE you can order a single blank board in this thread ...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:11 pm 
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*Cough* no gerber files.. :P

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 Post subject: Hi, I've scratch up a board following your schematic, but
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:54 am 
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Hi, I've scratch up a board following your schematic, but it doesn't work.

Your device is very great!
I've been trying to make a similar one for Force Feedback Proabout half a year before, but no progress.

This afternoon , I built one board by hand(I didn't finish a PCB), and I tried it-- but no response to the Windows(XP).
Even the sys gave no \"Found new hardware\" notice.
the system hardware management had no any updated information on the USB devices either.

the LED(connected to PD1), is always on(except a Blink on start/reset).

I read your firmware source code. I find it fistly run init_hw() function, and then the init the USB stack. So I assumed that the mcu didn't find my FFP. However, along with your bootloader readme file, It seems that when I plugged the device into the System, at least the system should have a response to the USB device. So I tried the bootloadHID.exe -r main.hex, it gave a \"cannot open the specified device\".

I don't know what's wrong with it. I test the voltage (with USB plug connected to the board), only about 4.0V, not normal 5.0V, I think someplace is wrong.

I used a NE556, I can't find a LM556 here, but I find the datasheet between them is the same.They min voltage is 4.5V, so I think something around Voltage is wrong.

I didn't go throught all the code of it, so i didn't well understand how the CODE runs.

Can you give me some more about the programming?
Why you use a 556 chip? is it following the US patent #5628686? to send a trigger signal?

If I want to make a similar device that support the Logitech Wingman series, must I used also a 556 chip to send a trigger signal?(of course, the connecting-wire is different).

Thank you!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:49 am 
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Sorry for the delay in the reply, I was OOT over the weekend.

Did you program the fuse bits ?

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 Post subject: Re: Hi, I've scratch up a board following your schematic, bu
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:47 pm 
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sprhawk wrote:
Even the sys gave no "Found new hardware" notice.
the system hardware management had no any updated information on the USB devices either.

So far, so good -- this only means that the converter did not find the stick and didn't activate the USB system.

sprhawk wrote:
the LED(connected to PD1), is always on(except a Blink on start/reset).

The LED should be blinking at about 60Hz -- you should be able to see that if you (carefully) wave the circuit board a bit in front of your eyes.

sprhawk wrote:
However, along with your bootloader readme file, It seems that when I plugged the device into the System, at least the system should have a response to the USB device. So I tried the bootloadHID.exe -r main.hex, it gave a "cannot open the specified device".

The bootloader will not activate until it sees a specific pattern on the button lines. With a 3DPro, you would push and hold buttons 3&4 (mode II) while plugging the converter into the USB port. Unfortunately that doesn't work with the FFP or PP, from the current Readme.txt:

Quote:
To activate the bootloader:

- carefully use two wires (or paperclips) to connect pins 4 & 10 and pins 5 & 14 of the DA15 connector.
- connect the converter to the computer

Try that, the LED should flash ten times when the loader activates, and your windows should start the "found new device" thingy.

If that works, and if you can actually upload new firmware, the USB side of the circuit should be fine.

Things to check:

- did you use the latest project archive (2007/07/06) ?
- did you use 4.7nF capacitors for C8 & C9 ?
- did you add the connection betw. pins 11 & 13 of the DA15 connector ?

The last two points are very important for using a FFP.

sprhawk wrote:
Why you use a 556 chip? is it following the US patent #5628686? to send a trigger signal?

Yes, the 556 emulates a PC gameport -- was the quickest way to get up & running w/ the whole thing :)

sprhawk wrote:
If I want to make a similar device that support the Logitech Wingman series, must I used also a 556 chip to send a trigger signal?(of course, the connecting-wire is different).

Yes, evtl. even two to have timers on all axis. Be aware that you can't use an interupt to clock in the data from a Logitech stick since they use a different method to transport the data (clock/data mixed on a button pair, two pairs per stick). It needs to be polled or you would have to use a different MCU that has 4 free IRQ lines.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:23 am 
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Gren... you still making these? Get at me if you are. I need one. Stupid windows decides when it wants to see the stick on an old sb16 :) I would love to take that card out because the rest of the computer is amazing! Hit me up here or on Kali when you get a second.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:29 pm 
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No, sorry. The 1st 58 were the only ones I'll ever make. Your best bet is to register here for the 2nd run KB has taken on.

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 Post subject: Full Units
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:12 pm 
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Are you still taking orders? If you are please put me down for two plz.

I hope I'm not late...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:09 pm 
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Please see here. This thread is for technical discussions only.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:57 pm 
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Updated the project archive to 2008-01-24 (grab it near the bottom of this page.)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:14 pm 
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Updated the project archive to 2008-02-09 (grab it near the bottom of this page.)

Started thinking about how to make the whole thing a bit less complex and designed a new prototype:

Image
Will take me a few days to build. If it works (using a single 555) it should make building-your-own simpler. Stay tuned..


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:36 am 
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Back to the drawing board. Lots of problems w/ the ATtiny chips, a single 555 seems not to work w/ the 3DP etc. etc. Still working on it tho.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:35 pm 
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Rev. 2 of above proto fixes the USB problems (tiny chips have different electrical characteristics vs the mega). Stacked a 2nd 555 on top of the 1st one -- fully featured converter. W/ one 555 the PP & FFP work fine, but not the 3DP. Waiting for some tax money to get a decent USB scope to check it out. Meanwhile I'll build another one w/ a 556, see if I can keep the wiring as simple..

Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:12 am 
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Here's a closeup of the \"tower\", I'm sure at least Duper will get a kick out of it :P

Image

Finished building a 2nd proto w/ rev 3 design, now w/ a 556. Pain in the neck, took me about 2.5hrs to build (works fine w/ all sticks tho.) Going to order a scope next week to do some analysis. The ideal situation would be to get rid of the 555's all together, that would make the design & DIY building real easy.

Image

Back:

Image

Stay tuned.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:20 pm 
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Grendel wrote:
Here's a closeup of the "tower", I'm sure at least Duper will get a kick out of it :P

(pic of two ic's piggy backed)



Wow, some fancy soldering there!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:36 pm 
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what kind of hundertwasser-style electronic soldering is that gren? i want an usb-converter for my 3dp and not modern art ;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:11 pm 
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lol @ the tower. nicely done. :)

how is this version less complex anyway, Grendel? judging by a quick view, it looks more complicated right now.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:30 pm 
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Grendel wrote:
Finished building a 2nd proto w/ rev 3 design, now w/ a 556. Pain in the neck, took me about 2.5hrs to build (works fine w/ all sticks tho.) Going to order a scope next week to do some analysis. The ideal situation would be to get rid of the 555's all together, that would make the design & DIY building real easy.



I think the stacked IC's were experimental and he is planning to have no 555's. :oops:

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:10 pm 
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Floyd wrote:
how is this version less complex anyway, Grendel? judging by a quick view, it looks more complicated right now.

It uses a smaller (cheaper) MCU, 20 pins vs 28. I tried to keep the layout simple by minimizing crossing lines to make copying easier. Most of the complexity right now is in the analog section (around the 556), I'm still hoping to design that chip out. The ISP header wouldn't be in a DIY version (J3, blue-ish connections) and R2, R8 & R9 are probably going to drop out as well.

Here's the old design, 2nd proto for comparison.

WillyP wrote:
I think the stacked IC's were experimental and he is planning to have no 555's. :oops:

Correct. The 1st proto w/ the single 555 did work w/ the PP/FFP but not the 3DP. The latter needs a 2nd 555 which I stacked on the 1st one :) A 556 is a two-555-in-one chip, it works fine but I would like to get the 555/556 out if possible.

Edit:

DigiJo wrote:
what kind of hundertwasser-style electronic soldering is that gren? i want an usb-converter for my 3dp and not modern art ;)

Actually, I promised that proto to someone who wants to frame it (after I'm done w/ it).. :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:49 am 
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Looking pretty good. W/ only one \"trigger channel\" consisting of a R/C combo (w/o the 555) it talks to the FFP/PP and switches the 3DP into 1-bit digital mode. Tomorrow I'll add the 2nd channel needed for the 3-bit mode, if all goes well things should get a lot simpler.

Dang, I need more space.. :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:30 am 
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Looking very good -- built another proto (last one for a while, I used up some key parts :)):

Image

Works w/ all 4 sticks. It needs more testing and software work, but this will probably become the \"official\" 3DP-Vert rev2 :) I'll take a picture of the backside later and post it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:09 pm 
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Here we go, front and back of the final proto:

ImageImage

Note that C8 & 9 are socketed in this version to allow me to swap them out quickly.

Here's a slightly improved version of the layout:

Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:07 am 
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Looking great Grendel! :D

Once you are satisfied with everything.

I take it you'll be releasing the details to make our own?
If so, how does one go about flashing the chip?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:49 am 
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Thanks :)

Actually you could build the hardware w/ the information above already. As for getting a flashed chip, there are many ways -- idealy you find someone who owns an Atmel ISP programmer and have that person load the hex image into the chip (takes only 10s or so).. They come in many flavors (ISP MkII, STK500, JTAG MkII, home-brew programmers all over the place as well), chances are that there's one somewhere around you ;) If you want to play w/ microcontrollers you can buy the Atmel ISP MkII at Digikey for $36 -- that's what I use, plugs right onto that 6-pin header labled \"ISP\" and integrates seamlessly into the AVR Studio 4, very easy to use :)

The less prefered but more realistic way to get one is probably me buying a few chips, program them, and send them out at cost (MCU+s&h) to whoever needs one.

I will release the software under GPL as soon I find some time to write at least a little documentation about what to do and how to build it.

Right now the main software is finished, working very well so far. Things I have to look at are:
  • more testing
  • should I stick w/ the 16MHz crystal ? 16MHz is not the ideal timing. The original code was written for 12MHz, 3MHz increments up are easy to accomplish so 15MHz would result in more acurate USB timing. Since I just squeezed to code down to 3828 bytes I could go for the 15MHz crystal (+106 bytes code.)
  • since the ATtiny461 has 4kb flash memory, I can't add a boot loader to update the application via USB (+2kb.) If I use a ATtiny861 (8kb flash, + $0.60) I could try to write one (unfortunately not as straight forward as w/ the ATmega8 from the 1st run. That chip has \"native\" support for a boot loader.) Personally I feel more comfortable having the ability to reload the software w/o an ISP and I do have an 861 so I'll probably give it a shot, see how it works out.
  • I would like to do a PCB layout for having a (small) run of finished boards made (I do realize that building one isn't for everybody :)). If I have them loaded as well, I could go SMD and make the converter small enough to fit into a connector shell, dongle style. Would be cool, but needs some time and research.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:27 am 
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Grendel wrote:
  • should I stick w/ the 16MHz crystal ? 16MHz is not the ideal timing. The original code was written for 12MHz, 3MHz increments up are easy to accomplish so 15MHz would result in more acurate USB timing. Since I just squeezed to code down to 3828 bytes I could go for the 15MHz crystal (+106 bytes code.)

Testing w/ the 15MHz crystal for now. If you see me in game I'll be using the latest prototype :)

Grendel wrote:
  • since the ATtiny461 has 4kb flash memory, I can't add a boot loader to update the application via USB (+2kb.) If I use a ATtiny861 (8kb flash, + $0.60) I could try to write one (unfortunately not as straight forward as w/ the ATmega8 from the 1st run. That chip has "native" support for a boot loader.) Personally I feel more comfortable having the ability to reload the software w/o an ISP and I do have an 861 so I'll probably give it a shot, see how it works out.

Turns out that it's more complicated than I would care for. Having the vectors static makes it pretty much impossible to use the same boot loader structure as w/ the mega8. I'll keep it in mind but I'll probably go w/o.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:53 am 
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Hi,
I'm following this thread since I found out the existence of 3DP-VERT.

Amazing job Grendel!

Now, I'm trying to build one by myself, and I think have no problem to assemble the hardware (I hope).
I'm a little bit difficult about programming ATmega8.
BTW, the Readme file from \"Project archive 2008-02-09\" encourage me to change the 12Mhz Crystal w/ a 16 one, then
Quote:
To compile the firmware, install the GNU toolchain for your operating system. Change to the firmware directory and run \"make all\".


???

Here I'm lost! :?
Is it possible to have a step by step guide to do that?

Tnx a lot!

Bak


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:16 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
To compile the firmware, install the GNU toolchain for your operating system. Change to the firmware directory and run \"make all\".


???

Here I'm lost! :?
Is it possible to have a step to step guide to do that?


Step 1) install GNU toolchain.
Step 2) change to the firmware directory.
Step 3) run \"make all\".

I think this is pretty much a step-by-step guide.

For Windows Operating systems, you can use the GNU tools by installing cygwin with the GNU toolchain packages.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:57 am 
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From the same readme.txt:

Quote:
TOOLCHAIN
---------

The converter is realized using an Atmel ATmega8 AVR micro controller,
Objective Development's firmware-only USB driver AVR-USB, and Objective
Development's BootloadHID.

http://atmel.com/dyn/products/product_c ... rt_id=2004
http://www.obdev.at/products/avrusb/index.html
http://www.obdev.at/products/avrusb/bootloadhid.html

The 3DP-Vert firmware was developt under Windows XP Pro using WinAVR
20071221
and Atmel AVR Studio 4.13 SP2b571. The ISP programmer used
is PonyProg2000, v2.06f BETA.

-->> http://sourceforge.net/projects/winavr/ <<--
http://atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_car ... ol_id=2725
http://www.lancos.com/ppwin95.html

For other OS's you'll have to find the AVR GNU tools yourself ;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:22 pm 
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Awesome work Grendal. Your last prototype definitely is a simpler one to make. I have a few friends on kali I'm making a few for. So far i've got a complete parts list except for C8,C9. 2.2n=22PF ??? I think I have the correct part# for digikey. It is (399-4220-ND). Mind taking a look and seeing if I have the right one?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:51 pm 
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2.2n = 2200p -- 399-4281-ND will do :) Are you planning to program the chips yourself ? If so, drop me a PM w/ your e-mail for sending you the hex image(s) (include how many you are making and what crystal you are using.)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:45 am 
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I built one on the board that comes w/ the RadioShack box (270-283), will take some pics of it over the weekend.

Here's the current BOM.

Code:
Quantity Digikey #   Description            Price   Schematic
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1   ATTINY461-20PU-ND IC MCU AVR 4K FLASH 20MHZ 20-DIP   $2.45   U1
1   ED3320-ND   IC SOCKET 20POS .300\" DIP GOLD      $1.61

1   X176-ND      CRYSTAL 16.000MHZ 20PF HC-49/US      $0.58   Y1
2   1N5227BDICT-ND   DIODE ZENER 3.6V 500MW 5% DO-35      $0.72   D1,D2

1 (5)   330QBK-ND   RES 330 OHM 1/4W 5% CARBON FILM      $0.27   R1
1 (5)   1.0MQBK-ND   RES 1.0M OHM 1/4W 5% CARBON FILM   $0.27   R2
2 (5)   68QBK-ND   RES 68 OHM 1/4W 5% CARBON FILM      $0.27   R3,R4
3 (5)   2.2KQBK-ND   RES 2.2K OHM 1/4W 5% CARBON FILM   $0.27   R5,R6,R7

1   P5177-ND   CAP 4.7UF 50V ALUM LYTIC RADIAL      $0.15   C1
2   399-4267-ND   CAP 15PF 200V 5% CER RADIAL      $0.58   C4,C5
2   399-4281-ND   CAP 2200PF 100V 5% CER RADIAL      $0.78   C8,C9
1   399-4264-ND   CAP .1UF 50V 10% CER RADIAL      $0.21   C3

1   ED90064-ND   CONN RECEPT USB TYPE B PCB      $1.34   J1

(1   182-15FE-ND   CONN DB15 FEMAL .318\" R/A NICKEL   $2.19   J2)
(1   MFR15K-ND   D-SUB CONN RECP 15POS W/O INSERT   $4.91   J2)

1 (10)   67-1647-ND   LED 3MM SHORT LENS SUPER RED CLR   $2.78   D3


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:31 am 
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Location: Corvallis OR, USA
Grendel wrote:
I built one on the board that comes w/ the RadioShack box (270-283), will take some pics of it..

Here they are -- took me about 90min to build:

ImageImageImage

Working on the documentation for source code release.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:24 pm 
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DBB Ace
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just outta curiosity, where does the gameport go exactly? sorry if it's like.. right in front of my face =P


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:06 am 
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3d Pro Master
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Location: Corvallis OR, USA
Good question. The protos I build have a header connector where the gameport connector goes -- it's the 15 pin black thing on the right side of the board (w/ the USB connector on the left). It maps 1:1 to a DB15F connector -- either replace the header w/ one or plug one of these onto the header.


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 Post subject: M$ Sidewinder 3D Pro on USB
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:59 pm 
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DBB Cadet
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Awesome work Grendel. I've been looking for something like this. I've got a PP and FFP and have been missing them.

I'm getting ready to build one (3 in the end) and want to know if this is the final design?
Have you come up with a board layout yet?
I'm using Eagle to design one. A Schematic would be nice but I'll work from your excellent pics if I must:)

I have everything in your BOM but I saw you were going to possibly use a different Crystal.
I was going to use the 16MHz Crystal. Should I be using something else?
Is there a place to get a copy of the Hex image?
Do you need any help writing documentation/instructions?

Thanks for the much needed solution.


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 Post subject: Re: M$ Sidewinder 3D Pro on USB
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:12 pm 
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KSeb wrote:
I'm getting ready to build one (3 in the end) and want to know if this is the final design?

Yes, the last two protos are the final design.

KSeb wrote:
Have you come up with a board layout yet?
I'm using Eagle to design one. A Schematic would be nice but I'll work from your excellent pics if I must:)

Since I lost my access to Orcad there's no layout nor schematic different from what I posted here so far.

KSeb wrote:
I have everything in your BOM but I saw you were going to possibly use a different Crystal.
I was going to use the 16MHz Crystal. Should I be using something else?

You have the choice betw. 16 and 12MHz. So far I have not found a noticeable difference, it's really up to you. You could socket the crystal to be sure :)

KSeb wrote:
Is there a place to get a copy of the Hex image?

Not yet, if you need it immediately PM me your email address and I will send it to you.

KSeb wrote:
Do you need any help writing documentation/instructions?

Think I'm ok, thanks for asking tho. Just need to find some time.. :/

_________________
ImageImage


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 Post subject: Schematic and board design
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:57 am 
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DBB Cadet
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 3:42 pm
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Here is my version of this awesome project.

Sorry about the schematic, it's been a while since I did one.

Can someone verify this for me.

The front image is reversed, for those of you who make your own.

If you want the eagle files I can post those also.
Thanks,
Ks

Image


Image


Image


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